The Truth Behind 9/11

[VinnieK]

Oh man, there's a disinformation team on here? I so dearly want a slice of that pie.

 

I bet the best thing about being a member of the disinformation team is that other people make themselves look like know nothing mentals when they draw attention to the fact that you're a member.

[haX0red_Account]

Something I noticed when I read back the last few pages....

 

The majority of conspiracy theorists adamant that something is afoot have posted poorly spelled, appallingly punctuated and rambling text, often without any clear understanding of how quoting works and only a rudimentary grasp of paragraphs.

 

The majority of people arguing against a conspiracy have constructed literate defences, with well laid out text and a clear and defined, often bulletpointed, set of statements. They are also generally of a high grammar and spelling standard.

 

Far be it form me to suggest that the bulk of people who are so rabidly convinced there is a conspiracy are poorly educated, but I leave you to draw your own conclusions....

 

I've also noticed too how inconsistent the rabid debunkers get when rebutting various arguments related to 9/11, perhaps due to their greater intellectual capacities. The logical fallacy concept gets a bye when this subject comes up, however only the conspiracists actually have to abide by it. It's a bit like those atheists who make it a mission to convince you there's no such thing as god.

 

- with regard to the phones issue, signal strength isn't necessarily the issue but the inter-cell handling. My point wasn't to say it didn't happen to me, therefore it's impossible, just that it's not adequately explained. In any event perhaps the biggest issue is that unlike in a major murder investigation, evidence would have been actively sought and presented. If someone was making calls from the plane, they were an eye-witness and the way they made those calls would have been presented in court. There's scope for law enforcement authorities to kill and speculation totally by providing that however they refuse or cannot do that.

- debris found 6.8 miles away as crow flies and there's a clip on cnn's archive if you want to see it cordoned off

 

Ans seems pretty cold about it given the whinging he did about his kid seeing a photo of a dead dog. For that matter, 9/11 is a bit like saying, I don't think that dog was killed, I think it might have got tangled in some tape while lost and fell down an embankment. Clearly nobody's going to think that however it looks obvious what has happened but there is as yet no evidence. The debunkers are just as foil-hatted as the conspiracists in my opinion. Pity their superior education doesn't let them perceive that 9/11 is a pretty broad church with a range of participants from the mentally ill trying to create a grand unified theory of conspiracy to some very rational, inquisitive people focusing on just a few narrow elements.

 

The fullness of time has revealed much about Pearl Harbor with some non-tinfoil hatted writings about advance warning, even with supporting evidence! I just really hope I'm not still sitting here on this forum when it comes out.

[VinnieK]

The fullness of time has revealed much about Pearl Harbor with some non-tinfoil hatted writings about advance warning, even with supporting evidence!

 

The idea that there was specific detailed intelligence relating to an imminent attack on Peal Harbour is still rejected by the vast majority of historians, whilst acknowledging that there was intelligence on a general increase in Japanese aggression (which was clear for anyone to see).

 

With regards to the opposite point of view, tin foil hats are still firmly in place on that one I'm afraid.

 

9/11 conspiracy theories are interesting because in a sense (and one that initially seems counter intuitive) they are more comforting than the obvious reality, offering an alternative to living in a world where a small group of individuals can bring massive destruction and death to an advanced, prosperous nation, using nothing more than a few knives. In Conspiracy Land the threat instead comes from a sinister band of officials duping and scaring the public to their own nefarious ends. At first the power of the officials appears to make them the more frightening of the two groups, until it's realised that whilst little can be done to effectively combat an amorphous terrorist group on the other face of the globe, the Achilles Heel of all wicked bureaucrats and officials is, as any fan of scooby-doo knows, nothing more than a group of fresh faced young go getters committing to unveiling the truth.

 

Fortunately, all schemes in Conspiracy Land are governed by the following universal law, known as the Bank Manager's Ersatz Ghost Law:

 

Even though conspirators are capable of planning and executing mind bogglingly complex capers and typically have untold resources to rely upon, they'll always bungle the details in a stupidly noticable way - such as letting people see them carrying big boxes labelled TNT into buildings, telling everyone a plane hit a building but neglecting to leave a big plane in the hole to prove it, neglecting their evil scientist buddies advice about metling temperatures.

 

Thus, in Conspiracy Land, not only can those who commit evil deeds be caught in the act in a way that's harder when you're dealing with terrorists, it's actually relatively easy to do so. To the Mystery Machine kids!

 

I just really hope I'm not still sitting here on this forum when it comes out.

 

Of course you hope you are. The whole point of conspiracy theories is that they're a secular equivalent of the revealed mysteries of various religions, designed to set their adherents as chosen people who are apart and above from the "herd".

[Albert Tatlock]

Of course you hope you are. The whole point of conspiracy theories is that they're a secular equivalent of the revealed mysteries of various religions, designed to set their adherents as chosen people who are apart and above from the "herd".

I think that is too generalistic a statement to make. Plenty of what were once 'conspiracy theories' have proven to be true. For example:

 

*Watergate

*Iran-contra

*Special Branch collusion with loyalist terrorists in Northern Ireland

*The Mafia (essentially completely unknown to outsiders) until revealed in 1963

*Operation Northwoods, a CIA plot to commit acts of apparent terrorism and blame them on Cuba to encourage support for a war (proven when documents were declassified and published)

*The holocaust (not widely known about until after the war)

*Enrongate (plus other companies)

*NSAgate (warrantless wiretapping)

 

...even here we've had Glencrutchery Road 'Gate' (bugging scandal)

 

There are many others.

 

The military, political and financial questions surrounding 9/11 are the most important questions not being asked at present, which I suspect are the real reasons why the media concentrate on these ridiculous aspects of 'conspiracy' that surround 9/11 - and which only divert attention from the real issues.

 

Something is wrong, and many of us know it and have our suspicions. Some of us base this on our experience and specific technical issues, others base it simply on rumour and tar all doubters with the same 'conspiracy nutcase brush'.

 

IMO, people should start from now i.e. a war in Iraq based on a 'war on terror' and WMD that did not actually exist. Agree that is where we are, and work back from there and you are into the military, political and financial questions surrounding 9/11, about which much remains unanswered, and has not even been addressed.

[VinnieK]

Of course you hope you are. The whole point of conspiracy theories is that they're a secular equivalent of the revealed mysteries of various religions, designed to set their adherents as chosen people who are apart and above from the "herd".

I think that is too generalistic a statement to make. Plenty of what were once 'conspiracy theories' have proven to be true. For example:

 

*Watergate

*Iran-contra

*Special Branch collusion with loyalist terrorists in Northern Ireland

*The Mafia (essentially completely unknown to outsiders) until revealed in 1963

*Operation Northwoods, a CIA plot to commit acts of apparent terrorism and blame them on Cuba to encourage support for a war (proven when documents were declassified and published)

*The holocaust (not widely known about until after the war)

*Enrongate (plus other companies)

*NSAgate (warrantless wiretapping)

 

 

There is a world of difference between these, which are typically systematic long term operations, and 9/11, a high profile incident designed (so the theory goes) with no greater an aim than to provide a causus belli.

 

What do all of the examples you cite have in common? They were hidden and made to have as low a profile as possible: The death camps of the holocaust were concealed in remote places, Operation Northwoods concerned itself with minor acts of terrorism that would be indistinguishable from the acts of the cuban military. A successful conspiracy operates on the basis that it's a gradual process whereby the day to day activities are minor and irregular - whilst acting towards a general plan this makes that plan all the easier to conceal.

 

In short, it's hard to imagine a serious conspiracy that decides to blow up thousands of people in one day, blame it on someone else and trust success of the deceit to nothing more than the simple hope that no one's going to be looking too closely.

[Chinahand]

I think that is too generalistic a statement to make. Plenty of what were once 'conspiracy theories' have proven to be true. For example:

 

*Watergate

*Iran-contra

*Special Branch collusion with loyalist terrorists in Northern Ireland

*The Mafia (essentially completely unknown to outsiders) until revealed in 1963

*Operation Northwoods, a CIA plot to commit acts of apparent terrorism and blame them on Cuba to encourage support for a war (proven when documents were declassified and published)

*The holocaust (not widely known about until after the war)

*Enrongate (plus other companies)

*NSAgate (warrantless wiretapping)

 

...even here we've had Glencrutchery Road 'Gate' (bugging scandal)

There are many others.

I'm not sure what to make of this. It seems to be mixing conspiracies up with conspiracy theories. All of your list outlines conspiracies - but only one or two of them involve conspiracy theories uncovering the truth.

 

Watergate - two campaigning journalists acting against the mainstream uncover a plot - no conspiracy theory prior to the plot been uncovered, after the event conspiracy theories ad nauseum.

Iran-contra - basically ditto - a lebanese newspaper breaks a world exclusive and a plane is shot down over Nicaragua - a week later Ronnie confesses and the justice department takes over with inditements etc and conspiracies theories all over the place.

Special Branch - yes I think there were large numbers of people who defied the establishment line and forced the truth to come out.

The Mafia - this isn't a single event or entity - your definition of outsiders is problematic - thousands of policemen and FBI operatives knew that crime was been organized - but they were unable to fully penetrate it. Plus 1963 seems a bit out - this was a brilliant intelligence/public relations coup to get all these Italian gentlemen on film meeting together, but I think the Mafia was a well known term and entity - always denied of course - in the 1930s - the name Al Copone springs to mind.

Operation Northwoods - totally unknown prior to it been declassified in 1997. No large scale group of conspiracy theorists trying to debunk official denials - just think what Oliver Stone would have done with JFK the movie if he'd known about this!

The holocaust - AFAIK there were not what I'd describe as conspiracy theories circulating against official denials in World War II. In the occuppied terretories the rounding up and sending to concentration camps of the jews was known - see the book Hitler's Willing Executioners for more details - in the UK and US officialdom knew progressively more about the jews fate, but believed the best way to stop the carnage was to win the war and so did not divert resources into a "stop the death camps" series of raids. Now in hindsight this is very controversial, but the point is its in hindsight - few people "knew the truth was out there" at the time and campaigned for it to be uncovered.

Enron - very similar to Watergate - almost no one outside the organization knew of the problems - this time a financial analyst chips away and the house of cards falls - no large scale popular movement demanding the truth is unveiled.

NSA - ditto - briefing were given to the New York times - when the NYT asks the government to respond it requests they do not break the story for reasons of national security. The paper agrees and holds off for about a year - it then decides the public interest is not been served and publishes. No large scale movement attempting to break down official denials.

 

This links back to VinnieK's original point - conspiracies are a psycological term - you have no idea what your employer might be planning - your local council - your government etc etc. The world is full of organizations which carry out their plans in secret - when people find out about them and do not like the result it tends to be called a conspiracy - Tesco's plans to buy up land banks around towns, BPs plans to sink a gas platform, government plans to add flouride to water.

 

I am working on quite a few conspiracies at the moment - things only I and a small number of people know about which will effect a larger number of people - some to their detriment. When the plans are unveiled cries of why wasn't I told earlier, why wasn't I informed will probably result - well that's life.

 

There is no doubt governments do things in secret - have conspiracies - but the idea that conspiracy theorists are successful in uncovering these deeds is very dubious. In the examples you've given the majority break when a few number of people are able to chip away at the dam and it then bursts - people can't keep it secret and tend to unburden to the journalist/financial analyst who suddenly appears and asks pertinent questions. Or the government admits it and publishes the documents themselves.

 

This is where 911 conspiracy theories and their ilk are so weak - thousands of people would have had to be invovled, or been manipulated with false information which would now be obviously false - but these people aren't coming forward. in the examples Albert gives people couldn't keep it secret and it became known. Why isn't this the case with 911 - the people who put the explosives in WTC 7, the people who manipulated the stock market, the people who told immigration and the CIA to back off, the people who told people to ignore intelligence reports etc etc etc.

[Chinahand]

I've also noticed too how inconsistent the rabid debunkers get when rebutting various arguments related to 9/11, perhaps due to their greater intellectual capacities. The logical fallacy concept gets a bye when this subject comes up, however only the conspiracists actually have to abide by it. It's a bit like those atheists who make it a mission to convince you there's no such thing as god.

 

HaX0red we are now getting closer to the real issue - I assume you'd put me in the rabid debunkers camp.

 

I fully admit I am totally reactive - I ignore this joke of a thread until some idiot goes "look at this - its impossible and has therefore to be a conspiracy". [on a side note I am fascinated by Christian nut jobs who fixate on Intelligent Design as a foil to evolution - the mind set is identical]

 

I come back with chapter and verse showing they are totally mistaken in their beliefs - I feel I provide factual information - photos, witness statements - what a historian would describe as primary evidence - and then back this up with peer reviewed analysis of this data. I've worked within peer review - I know how rigorous it is and so when 100 engineers examine a building collapse, or a plane crash and do not find the huge inconsistencies conspiracy theorists claim I tend to be dismissive of the CT's claims.

 

Repeatedly I and others have asked you lot to stop arm waving and get on with it. You don't.

 

Now how about a sliding scale of conspiracy.

 

1] The pre attack intelligence was unclear and only with hindsight was it possible to identify the attacks were been planned.

2] The pre attack intelligence gave vauge hints of the plot, which should have been picked up and identified, but bureaucratic failure allowed it to remain uncovered.

3] The pre attack intelligence gave indications that an attack was being planned, but not its large scale scope - rather than follow this up a deliberate decision was taken to under resource it to give the US a wake up slap in the face. My basic idea is that they thought it was another car bomb or similar at the WTC - 50/100 killed/hurt, but America wakes up to the reality of terrorism in a dangerous world.

4] The pre attack intelligence gave a clear indication of the nature and scope of the attack, but the investigators are told to back off to allow it to occur in all its bloody glory.

5] The pre attack intelligence is clear, but the conspiracy activel helps the plotters realize their plans, but without collusion - the plotters have no idea they are being helped.

6] The conspiracy actively colludes with its enemies to allow the attack to occur.

7] The conspiracy runs the plot - organizing the plotters in a false flag operation.

8] The conspiracy runs the plot - organizing the plotters - and decides to fake additional explosions, hijackings etc while also undertaking insurance fraud and stock market manipulation to profit from the attack.

 

I would really like people to repsond - where are you on the scale?

 

I am extremely sceptical of 3; I see almost no evidence to back it up, but I admit it MAY be possible. Cheney seems to me to be that type of patriot. But as far as I have read there is almost no evidence whatsoever that this occurred. 2 seems by far the most feasible option and people who are in the 6, 7s and 8s are just in the realms of messianic belief.

 

I hope this is a way the more serious sceptics on both sides can engauge each other.

 

So HaX0red - where are you - and far more importantly why?

[The Godfather of Manx House]

I'm plumping for 9 which scans thus:

 

The Twin Towers were actually made of cheese and were demolished to break the record for the world's largest fondue. WTC was "pulled" to provide the skewers in this dastardly food-orientated plot...

 

...GOMH*...

[VinnieK]

The holocaust - AFAIK there were not what I'd describe as conspiracy theories circulating against official denials in World War II. In the occuppied terretories the rounding up and sending to concentration camps of the jews was known - see the book Hitler's Willing Executioners for more details - in the UK and US officialdom knew progressively more about the jews fate, but believed the best way to stop the carnage was to win the war and so did not divert resources into a "stop the death camps" series of raids.

 

Everything I've read relating to the holocaust states the same. Where duplicity was used by the nazi's with regards to the death camps it was specifically aimed at the Jews themselves, in order to make the process of rounding them up and transporting them that much easier. Since by that time many of the Jews had been confined to ghettos there was little reason to extend these efforts to the general populace of Germany (some of whom actually lived very close to the concentration camps and were aware of the treatment of inmates there). There's a fair bit of evidence to suggest that the holocaust was an open secret in Nazi Germany, one that wasn't talked about but no effort was made to tightly control information about their existence.

[tameelf]

gettin a bit off topic holocaust and denial should be another topic the fact historians are jailed for denial.yet over the years the 6 million deaD JEWS NOW STANDS AT 250 k ACORDING TO AUCHWICH CAMP. and almanacs pre and post war. human skin lampshades documented were in fact goatskins soap never contained human dna all admitted by auchwich officials. we can deny god and be free.yet to deny the holocaust we can be jailed .will 911 be next? or santa?

 

back on topic could america kill its own people?

 

this is a vidio off a crime evidence submited got him executed it was he acted alone and with one bomb

for the open minded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMBvX3P8IjE

 

for the disinfo team a speelink mistuk

[VinnieK]

gettin a bit off topic holocaust and denial should be another topic the fact historians are jailed for denial.yet over the years the 6 million deaD JEWS NOW STANDS AT 250 k ACORDING TO AUCHWICH CAMP. and almanacs pre and post war. human skin lampshades documented were in fact goatskins soap never contained human dna all admitted by auchwich officials. we can deny god and be free.yet to deny the holocaust we can be jailed .will 911 be next? or santa?

 

back on topic could america kill its own people?

 

this is a vidio off a crime evidence submited got him executed it was he acted alone and with one bomb

for the open minded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMBvX3P8IjE

 

The quality of this thread has now been officially demoted from "moribund" to "demented zombie". All sane and healthy remnants of humanity are advised to evacuate as quickly as possible.

 

for the disinfo team a speelink mistuk

 

Why go to the trouble of providing one especially when the rest of your post is littered with them?

[tameelf]

now comment on the vid eh? vin

[VinnieK]

No, I'll comment on your entire post:

 

fact historians are jailed for denial.

Actual fact: Only in certain countries which have criminalized holocaust denial.

 

6 million deaD JEWS NOW STANDS AT 250 k ACORDING TO AUCHWICH CAMP

 

Super fun happy fact blast:

 

1. It's Auschwitz.

 

2. All the historical sources ("almanacs" et al) point to the death toll at Auschwitz alone was in excess of 800,000. The current figure estimated for the death toll of the holocaust is around 6 million, this is the figure that has been arrived at "over the years", not the one we started with as you state.

 

3. Declassified papers in the possession of the British and Soviet intelligence sources suggest that this figure is actually an underestimation.

 

human skin lampshades documented were in fact goatskins soap never contained human dna

Have a break, have a fact (or two):

 

1. Whether or not corpses were deprived of their skin for the manufacture of lampshades has no influence upon the question of whether that person actually died, and so your point is irrelevent to any discussion about the true numbers of those who perished in the holocaust.

 

2. Whilst there's plenty of evidence of nazi cruelty and sadism, it has always been acknowledged that the human skin lampshade was based on rumour, partly because no example of these lampshades has ever been found. Thus it's hard to see how precisely these tests you refer to were carried out.

 

Summary you're probably right that there were no human skin lampshades, but only by coincidence and it doesn't even make a relevant point.

 

we can deny god and be free.yet to deny the holocaust we can be jailed

Another sock to the branium:

 

No we can't, unless we live in a country in which holocaust denial is punishable by law (which does not include the U.S. the U.K., or the Isle of Man.

 

this is a vidio off a crime evidence submited got him executed it was he acted alone and with one bomb

for the open minded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMBvX3P8IjE

 

Yes, it's a video taken from one of the early newscasts that turned out to contain massive inaccuracies resulting from the chaos of the situation. These were later cleared up by people on the ground.

 

Now, to save you going to the bother of replying, my good friend Dr Emmet Brown visited the future (using a souped up Black Ops Delorean on loan from the CIA) and told me what you're going to write:

 

LOLZ!!1 theres almanacs NAZIS wrote4 they saY250K JEWS FROM AUCHWICH WERE DEAD at the holocast not 6 which is 2 big coz auchwich camp write 250K!!!!!111. I dunt see how Tony b.blsair say 6 million did its problie lie coz 6 to many but izrale told 6 so theys could pwnz0rd the arams ntake therre oil for US an thats y everybodie gets arrasted if they say 250k but not 6000,00. I kno 6 didnt happen coz AUCHWICH ONE CAMP for a few nazis and Hittler but 6 to many to be ded U DO A MATH! LOZLORZ! and besides their have been almanacs nazis wrote. NEWAY david irvings arrested and hes ENGLISH so u can be arested if you say 250K. not just AUSTRIA! Oh noes! That videos rigth and the coverup made people say noes to the questons after they didnt say noes which was the truth.

 

WHY WOULD THEY SAY NNOES IF THEIR SAY YES BEFORE!!!!!111111???????????????????????/// they changeg minds and so they had been coverediup.there was more bombs everywhere that people can see look at the vidio! but hes executed an was shot in the hed 40 times by americans for a crime this vidio says not what happens wju he dies? U think true? OH NOES US Pwned him like a n00b cuz cia did wallhax fukkin n00b sploiters!

 

There. Now imagine we just post my reply and your future reply above in an infinite cycle. That's this thread, that is.

[ans]

VinnieK, marry me.

[stevie]

I'm sorry lads but has this changed from the truth behind 911 to a debate on the holocaust?

and vinny i dont think it really matters about tameelf's spelling i think your clever enough to understand what he means!