The Truth Behind 9/11

[pongo]

As far as I'm aware that's the only mention of it. If any of the people who spend there days deep in whatreallyhappened.com have any more info on it I'd be interested.

 

The passports etc found in Pennsylvania we included in the 911 commission report, but why not this one?

 

I'm slightly sceptical that this wasn't a miss-report which confused the ones found in Pennsylvania - but who knows.

 

Again I ask the conspiracy theorists what has this got to do with anything?

 

AFAIK the story has never been retracted or corrected. There has been adequate opportunity.

 

I could be true. Seemingly unbelievable things do happen. If not then it was a very odd thing for them to say.

 

I am not a conspiracy theorist. The term is always pejorative and dismissive. But the conspiracy theorists and the people who would call people conspiracy theorists are often rather like two sides of the same coin.

[manshimajin]

But the conspiracy theorists and the people who would call people conspiracy theorists are often rather like two sides of the same coin.

Explain?

[pongo]

But the conspiracy theorists and the people who would call people conspiracy theorists are often rather like two sides of the same coin.

Explain?

 

They can sometimes be almost like the mirror image of each other. Just like the left and the right, or the good vs evil people.

 

People who would use the term conspiracy theory are often too quick to dismiss anyone who suggests that there are ever questions which might contradict the official version. Though time and again the official versions of events turn out to be historically wonky.

 

So when I note the magic passport found at the WTC, someone asks " the conspiracy theorists what has this got to do with anything? " As if that were one of the anomalies which only conspiracy theorists would be curious about. As if rational people should not be curious about anomalies.

 

If you stand back from the argument then you can picture the conspiracists and the anti conspiracists balancing each other out. Occupying and distracting each other. Net result zero.

 

Though both sides sometimes have interesting points to raise.

[Slim]

If you stand back from the argument then you can picture the conspiracists and the anti conspiracists balancing each other out. Occupying and distracting each other. Net result zero.

 

That's almost like a weak religion vs science argument. You're assuming the anti-conspiracy theory people are coming to their conclusions in the same way as the conspiracy theory supporters. Crucially, they're not. In my case I'm going to draw my conclusions from what's known and not make my mind up on things that aren't known, rather than fill the gaps like a conspiracy theorist may do.

 

Take tameelfs recent rant. Bad practices are reported to have happened during interrigation. I can believe that, and there's evidence to support it, making the results of that particular intelligence dubious. Going on to say that single interrogation forms the basis of the entire 9/11 commission and therefore rendering the whole thing worthless is just bollocks, but that's the kind of crazy logic jump you get from a conspiracy theorist.

[pongo]

In my case I'm going to draw my conclusions from what's known and not make my mind up on things that aren't known, rather than fill the gaps like a conspiracy theorist may do.

 

I agree with you that filling in the gaps can lead people to draw unreliable and rather pointless conclusions.

 

However even "what's known" does not necessarily ever form into a single linear argument or conclusion. There is too much information.

 

There is little doubt that the US knew that something was coming. But the US is not a single entity or center of power. And the different centers of power were fighting turf and budget wars in the years leading up to the attacks. There was not a single unified strategy or policy. Information was not shared. That much is well documented.

 

In a situation like that there would be a risk of departments effectively ending up running against each other like happened in Ireland where even now almost nobody can agree what was a bluff and what was a double bluff. At that level the whole thing can seem like a huge self perpetuating game which is impossible to unravel. My guess is that the war against terrorism has become like a big version of the war in Ireland.

[Chinahand]

So when I note the magic passport found at the WTC, someone asks " the conspiracy theorists what has this got to do with anything? " As if that were one of the anomalies which only conspiracy theorists would be curious about. As if rational people should not be curious about anomalies.

That someone was me - and I don't think it was an unfair question.

 

I am curious about the anomaly I've tried to find other sources for the report and haven't succeeded, I've noted that the other passports found were reported on further and wondered therefore if there was confusion in this instance. I've asked if other people have more information for them to provide it.

 

Is this some unreasonable "anti-conspiracy theorist" response?

 

I do use the phrase conpiracy theorist for people who are not making reasonable conclusions about evidence.

 

I'm not sure what term to use for people who are looking at these issues seriously - historian is becoming a reasonable term nowadays. And yes historians are looking at the events - and I read their work.

 

I continually ask for people to explain their ideas as simply as possible - some people, who have made huge leaps of logic, have made issues in this thread about passports - not you Pongo, but go back 50 odd pages and its there.

 

I went away and came to a dead end - I don't think it is wrong to ask what conclusions can be drawn about such an issue and then trying to make a judgement on whether those conclusions are reasonable or not.

 

That is what I have attempted to do consistently throughout this thread.

[Lovenotfear]

Any time now this shall become self evident!!

[Slim]

Any time now this shall become self evident!!

 

The same bloke who claimed insurance premiums had risen 20000 percent? He's a loon.

 

As to his controlled demolition absurdity, this summarises it pretty well. All stuff we've covered before:

http://www.maniacworld.com/9-11-conspiracy...s-debunked.html

[Terse]

I shouldn't really do this but....I COULDN'T RESIST IT!

[Jimcalagon]

You're drones - all of you, you're drones. Especially the drone.

[When Skies Are Grey]

that's brightened my day!

[When Skies Are Grey]

New NYPD photographs released

 

Sadly not revealing any little green men or holographic planes.....

[Amadeus]

9/11 Commissioner slips up, says missile hit Pentagon‏:

 

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=11058

[Albert Tatlock]

Is that true? Do you have any evidence of this, or is it just selection bias?

No graph or anything, but there is certainly enough anecdotal evidence for inference IMO. Just keep your eye on these sort of announcements in the future - and their timings.

 

e.g. From the USA

"The pattern continues. A terrorist plot is uncovered just as the masses start to question national security strategy. The day after Senate Democrats brought a vote to pull out of Iraq, we catch a few idiots in Miami who were supposedly trying to blow up the Sears Tower, despite the fact that they lacked the means and ability to do so. Then there were the guys busted for supposedly plotting to blow up a New York subway exactly a year after the London bus bombings. And don't forget the release of new Osama bin Laden tapes just before the 2004 election as well as the very day after the Supreme Court decision striking down the Guantanamo Bay military tribunals. And now today, a few men in England were arrested for a plan to blow up planes flying to America, just a day after Connecticut voters flatly rejected Joe Lieberman and the war in Iraq. We certainly can't deny that there may have indeed been plans to commit these acts. But the timings of the arrest announcements are awfully suspicious. All three were still in the works and had been monitored for several months by very capable intelligence agencies. While the exact nature of today's arrests is still unclear, none of the plans seemed to have been immediate or imminent threats. The decision of when to intervene has been arbitrary, making the coincidental timings pretty convenient. (And the question of whether some of them are "real threats," such as the Liberty City "Insane Clown Posse" remain to be seen.)"

e.g. From Australia

The Prime Minister has rejected suggestions his announcement that Australia is facing a possible terrorist threat has been timed to avoid scrutiny of the industrial relations and counter-terrorism laws. John Howard says he has intelligence now he did not have at the weekend, and the information concerns him. However, Mr Howard has refused to outline the details of the threat. He says the Government is doing everything it can to protect the community.

 

e.g. from UK

The news that Israel is bombing/invading the Lebanon, six British soldiers killed in Afghanistan, and an RAF Nimrod came down killing 14 - all relegated in the news by an 'alleged terror plot' to blow up UK airliners.

Maybe not scientific examples, but I bet there's a graph somewhere showing that it is. I shall do some research when I get the time.

Ahem!

 

Ahem! ...again.

 

US 'foils new underwear bomb plot' by al-Qaeda in Yemen

 

Hehe - I bet you'd thought you'd seen the last of this topic!

[Chinahand]

Albert, what is your point here - that the authorities are exagerating the threat for political reasons?

 

Surely you don't think the threat is non-existent?

 

Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab got through security with an example of this sort of bomb and it is only the incompetence of the bomb maker which saved 300 or so lives.

 

There will be continual coverage of these sorts of things as plots are uncovered - or sadly are successful - I suspect there will be a connection between this and political events - because the plotters want to target them and because the politicians want to highlight their efforts and successes and justify them, but these are secondary effects to the reality people have the resources and the motivation to try and destroy US/Western bound planes and are trying to do so.

 

Sure both sides will spin that reality to their advantage, and 99% of airport security is kid-ology and show, but bombs are being planted which could kill many people and seriously disrupt air travel.