A Torso Cannot Possibly Fly On Its Own

[Addie]

As he sometimes does, Rog makes some good points badly.

 

Anyway, surely someone as disabled as the person originally mentioned should be travelling in an air ambulance or something?

 

One only has to consider her getting on and off the craft, getting to the toilet, the meal & drinks etc. Seat belt operation (if of use anyway), life jacket suitability etc, etc.

 

Someone so desperately handicapped could well prove to be a danger to others and I wouldn't be happy if my family were put at additional risk because of one passenger.

 

In an emergency, who would look after the other 300+ passengers if it took most of the cabin crew to extract this one passenger from her seat?

 

There are many restrictions regarding who can and who can't travel on a 'plane, for example some pregnant women and very young babies etc and they don't sue!

[Speckled Frost]

Your last two points are contradictory Rog.

 

You don't regard disabled people as different at all and then go on to say it's not about viewing them as inferior but recognising they are different.

 

Say what?

[Guest Rox]

Remember, the Nazis were a minority who conned a nation.

 

 

That's why I find your post so depressing.

 

Think about it.

[Bill Posters]

And to Bill Posters. What is WRING with having a designated cabin area for people with severe physical disabilities? It is a win – win situation. In the event of an incident they would not hinder the rest of us and what is more they could have special evacuation procedures set up to take account of the inevitable lack of mobility that such people have.

 

One of my many objections to you post is the words 'cripple-zone'

 

I had thought you might be more tolerant to minorities, being Jewish and having your fellows persecuted for being 'different'

[Rog]

No contradiction, speckled frost.

 

I do not ‘see’ a cripple when I see someone in a wheelchair or struggling on some walking frame. Nor do I ‘see’ a cripple when I see someone who I discover has a disability that is not obvious. In both cases what I see is a person.

 

But the person that I see is also someone who is at the same time different in terms of their abilities and capacity in some way from the majority. Still a person (that doesn’t really even need saying) but one that at a human level is the same but that at a physical level is different. The issue is to what degree we should adapt the environment to cater for the differences that exist and as a minor point should such adoption be compulsory as will; shortly be the case for all shops, offices, places of entertainment etc. here on the Mainland.

 

I say no.

 

But to return to the matter of ‘differences’. It is a bit like the assertion that everyone is equal irrespective of race, colour, or creed, when in fact it is patently obvious that we are not. OK, at one level we are in terms that are set out in the Merchant of Venice when Shylock asks “If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? “

 

Yet the very point illustrated by the play that so accurately reflect ‘life real’ is that beyond a certain point there ARE differences and these should be recognised dealt with and not ignored, and the best all round solution sought.

 

And to Bill Posters --- what on earth is wrong with the use of the word cripple? It is not offensive, it is not obscene, it reflects reality - the only objection might be that it may possibly not be PC.

[Static]

Ans - you're right, I did end up agreeing partly with Rog, bugger. I think the problem is that I generally dis-agree with most of Rog's views that I mis-read what he some of what he had written. Rog - I owe you a partial apology.

[Kelly]

rog ask yourself - does it really affect you? I suspect the answer would be no. maybe a tiny proportion of the price you paid for air travel or for goods and services once went towards putting in a ramp over steps to a shop or to employing a full time air steward for those who need help. big deal.

with offices being made to have disabed access that will be so people dont suffer discrimination, so an employer wont think 'well I cant hire her she's in a wheelchair and we have no lift'. does this affect your life rog?

my gran has spent her life paying taxes as an abled bodied person, she was also a wren in the war but now age has confined her to a wheelchair. would you call her a cripple to her face? I doubt it. that kind of test is usually a good indication of whether a word is offensive or not. shes an independant woman and the likes of ramp access which your so bothered about will make her that less reliant on others and have that bit more choice. Does this affect your life rog?

 

your more of a old woman than her, worrying away about things that dont affect you, but seriously affect others, worrying that maybe some tiny bit of your money might find its way to making life easier for people you regard as 'cripples' or any of the other labels that people like you have for others.

 

It is NOT the responsibility of the rest of us to carry on paying directly or indirectly for what is neither our fault nor our responsibility.

Oh yes it is.

this is what i meant by society rog. we pay directly and indirectly for loads of people. we pay benefits to pensioners, unemployed, parents, the sick and more. So it would seem that you are wrong. It is our responsibilty, that is how we run our country.

The whole point of society is that we provide for those less fortunate and able than us. if you dont like it your living in the wrong place.

[P.K.]

A lot of these issues come down to simple liability. Air France were correct to refuse her passage IMHO. Basically they could not guarantee her safety therefore she does not go. Simple. The article states she has flown before but does not state whether it was with a carer or not. I suspect it was with a carer otherwise they would have mentioned it to emphasise the "heartlessness" of Air France.

 

As to disabled access if it consists of going up a ramp instead of steps? Fair enough. Aisles wide enough for a wheelchair? OK with me. Lifts that are mostly used by women with prams? Why not. Of course, Rog is right to state that you could go too far until you reach a horrendously expensive point that we will all pay for. Yes you could but we probably won't so I'm not going to whip up a froth over it. I can't read the future and don't know of anyone who can (Mystic Minnie excepted of course) so we will just have to wait and see hopefully in a calm and reasonable manner.

 

A Question : should Manxforums ban Daily Mail readers?

[loaf]

And to Bill Posters --- what on earth is wrong with the use of the word cripple?  It is not offensive

I don’t think that’s for you to decide either way, unless you yourself are crippled.

it is not obscene, it reflects reality

Are words defined as offensive because they are unrealistic? Not most of the ones I can think of.

- the only objection might be that it may possibly not be PC.

But it's fairly obvious you’re really spoiling for a flame war by using emotive and controversial language. Like I said in my previous post, it’s really far less an issue than you make out. Probably just down to thick ticket sales staff. If she’s made her position quite clear and they’ve bungled the job, she has a right to sue, in my opinion.

[ans]

Kelly, I wonder how much it would affect you if your escape route from a burning plane was blocked by a bunch of cripples without carers.

 

Air France took exactly the right stance. While society must do their bit to help and assist those less fortunate or less bodied, it should never be to the detriment of others and to allow someone incapable of mobilising themselves independently, who chose not to bring a suitable carer or check ahead that the airline could accomodate, is endangering the lives of other passengers on the aircraft.

 

My gran stopped flying a couple of years ago and she had to use a wheelchair to get to and from the plane. She always made sure there would be a wheelchair available at either end and someone willing to assist her to and from her seat.

 

Sure, society has a responsibility to deliver comfort and care to disabled people, but disabled people also have a responsibility to do what they can for themselves.

[Rog]

rog ask yourself - does it really affect you? I suspect the answer would be no.

 

But if everyone took the attitude that if something doesn’t directly affect them then they should not bother with it a fine state we would be in. It's enough that we have a country swimming in illegal immigrants and that our taxes are squandered on politically correct ventures such as 'cartoon drawing for the lesbian community in Greater Manchester' (yes, really)

 

maybe a tiny proportion of the price you paid for air travel or for goods and services once went towards putting in a ramp over steps to a shop or to employing a full time air steward for those who need help. big deal. with offices being made to have disabed access that will be so people dont suffer discrimination, so an employer wont think 'well I cant hire her she's in a wheelchair and we have no lift'. does this affect your life rog?

 

Yes it does. Every penny that is spent on such things has to come from those who buy goods or services or pay taxes. There should not be a compulsion on employers or owners of businesses to make their businesses 'accessible to all' if they choose not to do so. Remember, governments have no money other than that which they take from tax payers and owners of businesses have no money except from what they make in profit from sales. Load costs to either government or business and you increase what must be taken from Joe Public.

 

my gran has spent her life paying taxes as an abled bodied person, she was also a wren in the war but now age has confined her to a wheelchair. would you call her a cripple to her face?

 

Yes. If she is disabled then she is de facto a cripple. Not a problem.

 

---- the likes of ramp access which your so bothered about will make her that less reliant on others and have that bit more choice. Does this affect your life rog?

 

Yes - everything that is non-productive has to be paid for by increased costs or taxes. I'm not suggesting that NOTHING should be done, just that the decision should be based on the way that the business owner decides to exploit the market.

 

your more of a old woman than her, worrying away about things that dont affect you, but seriously affect others, worrying that maybe some tiny bit of your money might find its way to making life easier for people you regard as 'cripples' or any of the other labels that people like you have for others.

 

Nothing wrong with using the right word to describe a condition. Someone who is disabled is crippled to at least some extent. And tiny bits of money here and tiny bits of money there soon add up to massive sums especially as other interest groups get on the band wagon. Government and the state are far too big and far too involved in our lives. People should be left to make their own decisions as to how their money is spent and not have it taken and squandered by some vogue or PC flavour of the day by politicians.

 

It is NOT the responsibility of the rest of us to carry on paying directly or indirectly for what is neither our fault nor our responsibility.

 

Oh yes it is.

this is what i meant by society rog. we pay directly and indirectly for loads of people. we pay benefits to pensioners, unemployed, parents, the sick and more. So it would seem that you are wrong. It is our responsibilty, that is how we run our country.

The whole point of society is that we provide for those less fortunate and able than us. if you dont like it your living in the wrong place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wonderful! The equivalent to 'There's a boat every morning!

 

‘Plus ca change’ eh!

 

Edit by ans: I fixed your quoting disaster. Hope you don't mind.

[Guest Rox]

To call someone who is non-ambulent a 'cripple' is, in my opinion offensive. I don't know one single disabled person who would not find it offensive also. It may have been fashionable in the past but then so was ricketts, TB, syphilis and diphtheria.

 

And realistic? Really?

 

It might be rather 'realistic' for me to call you 'Big Nose' or a 'Cliptip' - but I would not. I would like to think I am caring enough to my fellow man not to cause offence.

 

What a pity you do not share that same sentiment.

 

Can you not see what Bill Posters and others are saying? As a race you have been perseucuted since the beginning of time. I can't begin to believe that all of that has not taught you something.

[When Skies Are Grey]

So where do you draw the line then Rog...are you proposing a sliding scale of disability to see whether you are privilged enough to fly....maybe next time you can see if she fitted in the overhead lockers maybe that would solve your problem.

 

Its comments like this that dilute some of the interesting/informative things that Rog occasionally has to say.

[Bill Posters]

Thank you. I am glad someone understood what I was trying to say.

 

Rog, I wouldn't dream of making derogatory comments about you based on your appearance, abilities, ethnic origin, hair colour or what ever. I am NOT a 'PC' person, as those who know me would confirm. Howver, I do find the term 'cripple' to be very offensive. But, as Loaf points out, you are probably just setting out to use inflamatory language to get a response.

 

Is it ok with you if I start a thread about the Jews using derogatory terms?

Don't worry I won't. I am just surprised at you.

[Speckled Frost]

Why should cripple be more offensive than non-ambulent?

At least it doesn't contain a negative pre-fix!