manxchatterbox Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 prediction for early in the New Year is that gas prices will go up again if Russia goes ahead with "switching off" the gas for the Ukraine http://news.ft.com/cms/s/6890fa5c-795f-11d...00779e2340.html when will the price be just too much how much do home electricity wind generators cost?? I see planning permission has been granted recently for two installations so some people musdt think they are worthwhile... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Home generators are more expensive than buying the stuff from the MEA. Wind power is only just economic for huge wind generators ulitizing the most modern magnets, lightweight blades, carbon fibre technologies etc. Also the main way to make a profit from wind is to have multiple sites; preferably all over Europe or even the world so that when the wind doesn't blow in one place, you can still make money from it blowing else where. Obviously this doesn't work for a home generator. The main thing that has made wind energy evenly marginally economic in the last few years is the fact they generate carbon credits as well as electricity ... but as a private individual you aren't going to be raking in the millions or even pennies via carbon. Sure if you have a philosophical desire to reduce carbon emissions get a generator, but DON'T do it if you want to save yourself money. This is an approximately quarterly gripe from myself, but can everybody go and check out: IOM Inflation report for November There you will discover that in the Year 2000 electicity prices were 100 and the are now at 119.7. General inflation was also set at 100 in 2000 and is now at 121.3. The price of electricity in the Isle of Man has fallen in real terms in the last five years. Gas on the other hand has gone up massively ... but the story is more complicated than that: natural gas via the MEA pipeline has a different price level to town gas imported by bulk carrier. When the Fair trading people do there investigation into gas they'll need to be careful ... the cost of gas in Douglas is very different from the cost of gas in the rest of the Island. Manx gas have two very different costing structures based on who they are supplying. If you only look at the agregrates it's confusing, but there is more than a chance that Manx gas is making a killing in Douglas and a loss else where. The PKF report has already said Manx gas are being subsidized by the MEA for their purchases from the pipeline; the natural gas is cheaper than town gas, but price levels are still set from the old town gas prices charged prior to conversion. The Energy cost investigation should make interesting reading, but my prediction is that it'll say there is no evidence of excessive prices ... because the current energy market is swamping out any of the nuances I've raised. Anyone know if the energy futures market is up next summer compared to last summer and by how much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxchatterbox Posted December 31, 2005 Author Share Posted December 31, 2005 like didn't the MEA buy forward for the gas delivery at a fixed price and don't the MEA supply Manx Gas...so how come the gas price to the consumers keeps being adjusted but the lecky doesn't as much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Home generators are more expensive than buying the stuff from the MEA. Knowing the guy that was featured in the news quite heavily over the past year due to the dispute between him and a high ranking MEA employee over the installation of his wind generator, I can assure you that it is most definitely not more expensive. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're just mistaken. Given your pro-MEA history and your seemingly close ties to them, it would easy to accuse you of outright lying but I'll not go that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxchatterbox Posted December 31, 2005 Author Share Posted December 31, 2005 ans has said what I was thinking 'cos why would people want to put up domestic wind turbines if they produced electricity even more expensive than buying it from the MEA... so now there are at least two planning applications granted will there be a 'flood' of applicants? does anyone know how much domestic wind turbines are and the practicalities of installation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 If you have the technical know how, they're actually not that expensive. Planning permission is the biggest hurdle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
=^..^= Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 These actually feed power back into the home as you use them (somehow I doubt it is less than the computer needs to control it but at least its better than nothing) The strange thing is that they work fine in Europe and America but not in the UK where they apparently blow fuses in the supply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilDDog Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Wind power Manx ChatterBox Try googling for information on wind power I'm sure you'll find the information you're looking for. It can be done and quite cheaply. I was going to look into it myself but I'm just too busy at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckett Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Chinahand - all it has to do is earn its back its cost in home produced electricity. I don't see how it can't be cost effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 A Typically over long ... and probably boring Chinahand post! Just to correct some insinuations from earlier postings! I don't have any knowledge on wind turbines from the MEA ... other than having a joke over the complaint by the "high ranking MEA employee" [aren't we allowed to say the CEO, it is public knowledge!] about his neighbour's scheme. I was asked to do some work for a scheme in Northern Ireland a bit ago. It was almost a commercial venture on a farm: 30 foot tower, hill top location, big investment to be able to sell the excess on. They asked me to look at the figures after the first 3 months: late autumn early winter so the optimal time. It just wasn't a commercial proposition, the payback periods were just too long; the risks of a failure over those periods was too great and the financing costs needed a quicker payback: It just didn't add up ... I said it earlier its a philosophical decision not an economic one! To see what its like for a domestic scheme I did two back of the envelop schemes [there's not much to do at night in China, the TV's crap, and this interests me]. The results did slightly suprise me; they aren't entirely lame ducks ... but I'm happy to argue they aren't economic. I'll did two options: 1) a 400 W small generator; not plugged into the grid. These are available for about 600 quid ... but the support structure, wiring, alteration to your hot water system, labour, planning permission will cost you about another 600. I've also assumed there is a 50% chance you'll need to spend an additional 500 in the first 5 years, 80% chance the same in the next 5, and 100% you'll have to do it in the final 15 years. This is standard maintenance, hassle factors etc. In total that 2250 quid in 15 years: all to generate 400W in optimal conditions... now there are two problems You don't actually need 400 W all the time. Even if you've altered your plumbing and put in larger storage tanks etc ... which will probably cost you more than what I've budgeted you aren't going to be needing the output all the time. Your electricity usage is a bit like a castle wall: ________ ________ | | | | ____| |________| |________ Simplified. For about 18 hours a day the demand is low; about 0.2 units per hour: this is the trickle into your hot water overnight; lazy afternoons etc. Then for 2 periods of about 3 hours each you have a much larger demand: around about 1 unit per hour. This is sustained over a 3 hour period; obviously it will be higher when you switch the kettle on etc. I'm averaging it over 3 hours! So your simple 400W generator is NOT, even ideally (see below for the reality), pumping its 400W usefully all the time, a significant proportion of this isn't being used; its just over heating water etc. Don't forget this is a simple system it doesn't sell to the grid and so the rest is wasted. So the turbine isn't, even ideally, saving you 400 W continuously, but 200 W for 18 hours of the day and 400 W for 6 hours of the day. I'm pretty certain the unit charge is 11.4p per unit. So that means the 400 W wind turbine saves you 6 units per day; which is 68.4p. BUT THERE IS ANOTHER PROBLEM. Of course the wind doesn't blow all the time. I assume there will be arguements over this, but I've read the actual output is likely to be 60% of optimum. I personally think that is optimistic, in the IOM we have both too little and too much wind, both of which mess up the calculations. So the ideal 68.4p per day, is on average 41.04p per day. In the 15 years of the project it will pay you back 2246.94 quid. Obviously people are now going to leap up and down saying it DOES pay for itself ... come on get real. You may basically be getting what you had to put in, but a 15 year payback ECONOMIC? ... nope, I do not think so, especially when the damn thing could well fall off, vibrate the tiles off your roof etc etc. OK Scenario 2 You do what Wilddog's web site recommends and spend 3000 quid for a 1 KW system that pays into the grid. The 3000 excludes maintenance etc, so I'm going to add on the 1150 quid as in case 1. I.E. you've got to payback 4150 quid in 15 years. Now you can sell to the grid you aren't going to be constrained by your own load. You'll have you're entire electricity costs paid for and be able to send on the excess during the 18 hours of slack time: Then you'll sell 800W (1000 minus the 200 W you are using) to the grid. Unfortunately all you'll get for this is 2.7p per unit. You sell at wholesale prices. Doing the maths it makes you 90.576p per day, assuming 60% efficiency. This larger scheme does pay for itself in 15 years. It ONLY takes 12.5 years to get your money back. Now the above analysis ignores finance costs: have you a better use for your 4000 pounds. Just because it pays itself back, DOES not mean its economic, a 12 year payback is a huge risk and once it has paid for itself its not got a long time period to make any money. I'm looking forward to comments about this post. I'd be interested in nit picking my figures; I don't think I've done anything significantly wrong; a 12 year payback MAY become 10, but it could be 14 etc etc. I'd also be interested if people really do think a 12 year payback is economically worthwhile. This thing is going to need maintenance, accounting for the energy sales, income tax implications etc etc etc. It is NOT simple. Its a hassle and I still firmly believe the people who do it are doing it for philosophical reasons not to make money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Interesting Chinahand. But can you just explain to me whether these turbines just supply power to heat/contribute to heating the water and heating system or whether the power produced could be put to other uses? Or is the source insufficiently constant to power other uses? Couldn't the surplus power generated in your first example be stored in batteries to be used when the wind is not at the generating optimum? Just interested, because I really do not know the answers to these questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finlo Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 like didn't the MEA buy forward for the gas delivery at a fixed price and don't the MEA supply Manx Gas...so how come the gas price to the consumers keeps being adjusted but the lecky doesn't as much... Because very little is actually generated by gas? I think you'll find all the old heavy oil plant still in use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah 01 Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Yep, GTBB, that's what I was thinking too. Surely the generated power could be stored and domestic services run off those supplies on those very rare days when the wind doesn't blow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Yep, GTBB, that's what I was thinking too. Surely the generated power could be stored and domestic services run off those supplies on those very rare days when the wind doesn't blow. Thats what you get for the 3000 quid set rather than the 1200 quid one. But rather than storing it for your personal use, its directly sent back into the grid. I'm pretty certain the transformers, meters and dc/ac converters are cheaper than the batteries and switching control systems to feed a battery system. The main point to make is that your house runs on 240V AC current. These wind generators are usually at 24 or 48 V DC. To convert it to be useful is expensive and difficult and the best use for it is as a top up for hot water and heating; you install a dedicated DC heater. Because the voltage is low, the current is higher and resistance losses etc higher. Yep you can store it in batteries, but finding a use for the energy stored in these batteries isn't easy. Retrofitting your house is expensive ... and the value your getting is just not enough to justify it. Sorry if I sound like a stuck record saying this, but its not an economic decision its a philosophical one. Your house is not set up to take low voltage power and finding a use for it takes converters and switching which isn't cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Can households (or companies for that matter) sell electricity back into the grid - on the IOM? Does a process exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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