Port St Mary Harbour Appeal

[LoneWolf]

It's not my job to do your MHK's work for them. What do they say? Have they done anything apart from sitting on the fence?

 

You started this thread not me and certainly not our MHks.

You havent answered a single question put to you and, intended or not, you give the impression that you know better than the people who live in Port St Mary what is best for them.

I dont accept for one minute there is vehement opposition in the village to the proposed Marina. Neither do I accept there is fervent support !!

To be honest I dont think most people give a toss one way or the other.

But it is still the case that Port St Mary people have to live in the village. No one else.

If, as you seem to think, it is a big issue, why arent you lobbying for the village to have a vote on the matter ?

[Charles Flynn]

It's not my job to do your MHK's work for them. What do they say? Have they done anything apart from sitting on the fence?

 

You started this thread not me and certainly not our MHks.

You havent answered a single question put to you and, intended or not, you give the impression that you know better than the people who live in Port St Mary what is best for them.

I dont accept for one minute there is vehement opposition in the village to the proposed Marina. Neither do I accept there is fervent support !!

To be honest I dont think most people give a toss one way or the other.

But it is still the case that Port St Mary people have to live in the village. No one else.

If, as you seem to think, it is a big issue, why arent you lobbying for the village to have a vote on the matter ?

 

 

I have answered all your questions courteously and fairly.

 

The people will have a vote in Port St Mary when the Rushen MHK's go to the polls. They are totally responsible for any decision which will be made. Did any of them organise a public meeting to discuss the matter with the Port St Mary people? If not get after them. They are being paid to do a job. I am not being paid by anyone nor do I have any interest in the matter apart from representing the Mannin Angling Club whose Chairman is very angry about this proposal. Go to the Government Dept. and read the letters including his.

 

Did you make any comments to the Planning Committee on the proposals yourself? If you have a complaint speak to the Planning Authorities. I would support you in such a complaint if it helps.

[LoneWolf]

I have answered all your questions courteously and fairly.

 

The people will have a vote in Port St Mary when the Rushen MHK's go to the polls. They are totally responsible for any decision which will be made. Did any of them organise a public meeting to discuss the matter with the Port St Mary people? If not get after them. They are being paid to do a job. I am not being paid by anyone nor do I have any interest in the matter apart from representing the Mannin Angling Club whose Chairman is very angry about this proposal. Go to the Government Dept. and read the letters including his.

 

Did you make any comments to the Planning Committee on the proposals yourself? If you have a complaint speak to the Planning Authorities. I would support you in such a complaint if it helps.

Charles,

You havent answered a single question put to you.

You also seemed to have missed my point that, as far as I am aware, not many people in Port St Mary, give a tinkers cuss one way or the other about a Marina.

This can only be tested by reference to the good folks of the village themselves. I do not see that anyone else qualifies for an opinion.

I dont have a complaint about the proposals but I do have a complaint about people who dont even live in the area seeking to impose their opinions on the village. (That means you !!)

You are obviously someone who likes to take advantage of existing mechanisms, such as the planning committee, which IMHO are distinctly undemocratic, but thats entirely up to you. I do remember a meeting with you when you favoured my own approach of direct action, but thats a long time ago :-)

I still wonder, if you have such a strong opinion on this why you arent advocating village residents, and noone else, should be given a vote.

Did you spot the question ? Ill repeat it. Why dont you advocate village residents are given a vote on the matter?

[Charles Flynn]

 

I have answered all your questions courteously and fairly.

 

The people will have a vote in Port St Mary when the Rushen MHK's go to the polls. They are totally responsible for any decision which will be made. Did any of them organise a public meeting to discuss the matter with the Port St Mary people? If not get after them. They are being paid to do a job. I am not being paid by anyone nor do I have any interest in the matter apart from representing the Mannin Angling Club whose Chairman is very angry about this proposal. Go to the Government Dept. and read the letters including his.

 

Did you make any comments to the Planning Committee on the proposals yourself? If you have a complaint speak to the Planning Authorities. I would support you in such a complaint if it helps.

Charles,

You havent answered a single question put to you.

You also seemed to have missed my point that, as far as I am aware, not many people in Port St Mary, give a tinkers cuss one way or the other about a Marina.

This can only be tested by reference to the good folks of the village themselves. I do not see that anyone else qualifies for an opinion.

I dont have a complaint about the proposals but I do have a complaint about people who dont even live in the area seeking to impose their opinions on the village. (That means you !!)

You are obviously someone who likes to take advantage of existing mechanisms, such as the planning committee, which IMHO are distinctly undemocratic, but thats entirely up to you. I do remember a meeting with you when you favoured my own approach of direct action, but thats a long time ago :-)

I still wonder, if you have such a strong opinion on this why you arent advocating village residents, and noone else, should be given a vote.

Did you spot the question ? Ill repeat it. Why dont you advocate village residents are given a vote on the matter?

 

Charles Flynn replies:

I have absolutely no wish to impose my opinions on anyone. I have too much respect for the people of Port St Mary to even think of doing that. I have no power to do so. It is the Government Minister who will make the final decision not me. I am just someone who is appearing as a witness -- unpaid -- for the anglers. I don't even fish by the way.

 

If you want to organise a direct fair vote I would support it. Yes I do advocate it if it is going to get the right result for Port St Mary. Sometimes direct action is the only way which will work. I have always said it is the local people who matter not visiting yachtmen or wealthy individuals who want to tie up their boats in a particular harbour or people like me who live in Douglas.

 

If you think the Planning procedure is undemocratic - well so do I. Last year I spent 10 days at the public inquiry on the All Island Strategic Plan. I spoke about how unfair I felt it was that there was not enough opportunity for people who have to work all day to get to Planning Meetings and make their views known.

I hope the Authorities will take some note of this and if they don't I will be raising it again.

[Gladys]

Charles if your only role is as an unpaid, "expert witness' then why are you trying to whip-up some kind of opinion on this forum? Hardly seems appropriate!

[Karellen]

The people of PSM have elected a series of useless and incompetent "worthies" who have landed the village in a financial mess, a burden that the ratepayers have to bear through the highest local taxes on the island.

 

If the marina plan is squashed by the environmentalist brigade, then hey, we can spend the cash on what we really need, a new town hall.

 

/sarcasm

[ian rush]

I don't agree with the rationale that the people of Port St. Mary *must* have the final say. Otherwise we'd never have had a new prison, incinerator, civic amenity sites etc. if it was left to the people of Jurby, Braddan, Kewaigue etc.

 

Some decisions have a broader benefit to the Island and this could be one of them.

[Lonan3]

The village is mainly against this proposal.

I think this point has already been dealt with. Without a referendum of the people in the area, this is merely the expression of your own personal view of the situation garnered, on your own admission, mainly from environmentalists rather than an outright majority of the populace.

 

Residents at Beach Road and Shore Road are fearful of changes to the tidal flow that may occur.

 

This is certainly worthy of consideration. We already have the example of what happened to Douglas Bay after the construction of the new breakwater, when the altered tidal flow (predicted by fisherman but dismissed by 'expert consultants,') caused increased deposits of seaweed and wrack at the Northern end and considerably increased the foul smell that we are now told was always there!

 

There are potential environmental problems with sediment transport, wave and tidal activity, water and sediment quality, marine ecology, visual charater, archaeology and heritage, traffic, noise, dust and air quality etc.

 

I'm obviously not qualified to comment on those points although, once again, they are clearly questions that need to be answered.

 

Ultimately, as another poster has stated, far from being an idyllic place, Port St Mary appears to be dying a slow death from economic strangulation. Unless something is provided in the near future to attract suitable residential and retail developments, it will inevitably deteriorate.

So the question becomes - if not a marina, then what?

[lectro]

Is it not true that people who are strictly opposed to something will voice their opinions loudly as opposed to those who's views aren't quite as strong and will generally just keep quiet? Most people would welcome progress and improvement but may not be as inclined to be as vociferous as those who for whatever reason are vehemently against it.

 

I've lived in PSM for nearly a year and while it is quaint and quiet it's also obvious that it's a village in decline. Walk through the village (rather than drive) and it's plain to see. Speak to some of the older residents and yes they'll want to keep things unchanged. Speak to some of the younger population then you'll get a different picture. Speak to some of the people who sail into PSM during the summer months, and who would spend more money in the area if there were more facilities.

 

Are the environmental concerns really valid? Has there been a proper environmental study carried out? And (no disrespect intended) by independent professionals not connected with the Mannin Angling Club or the "No" crowd? Has this been made available to the residents of PSM?

[Charles Flynn]

Charles if your only role is as an unpaid, "expert witness' then why are you trying to whip-up some kind of opinion on this forum? Hardly seems appropriate!

 

 

Glad to be back

 

No I am not trying to whip up any opinion. I am trying to find out what Forum members think.

 

I am most concerned that the final decision is right for the Island and the people of Port St Mary. It may well be that the Marina should be built but let's ensure that all the concerns are addressed and conditions are attached to any approval so that safety, environmental concerns, the peace of Port St Mary is not compromised. Port St Mary Commissioners who presumably have taken soundings from the people of of the village are opposing the present plans.

 

It is interesting to have the views of members of this Forum as it certainly sheds a different light on the debate. I am afraid there is something seriously wrong with the Planning Process as very few of these views have been submitted in writing to the Planning Committee of DOLGE. The written views I have seen are mainly from possibly older people who are worried about the effect on the environment, about their well being by the constuction of a Marina and by mariners concerned about safety.

 

As far as Mannin Angling is concerned they are mainly worried about the angling competition and whether the new marina will completely stop them fishing at Port St Mary.

 

Now provided these concerns are addressed and remedied as best they can - and of course you can't please all the people all the time - I would support the building of the Marina.

 

I have no vested personal interest either way.

 

Just let's get all the problems resolved before it goes ahead which as far as I can see is the opinion of the Planners.

[Gladys]

Charles if your only role is as an unpaid, "expert witness' then why are you trying to whip-up some kind of opinion on this forum? Hardly seems appropriate!

 

 

Glad to be back

 

No I am not trying to whip up any opinion. I am trying to find out what Forum members think.

 

I am most concerned that the final decision is right for the Island and the people of Port St Mary. It may well be that the Marina should be built but let's ensure that all the concerns are addressed and conditions are attached to any approval so that safety, environmental concerns, the peace of Port St Mary is not compromised. Port St Mary Commissioners who presumably have taken soundings from the people of of the village are opposing the present plans.

 

It is interesting to have the views of members of this Forum as it certainly sheds a different light on the debate. I am afraid there is something seriously wrong with the Planning Process as very few of these views have been submitted in writing to the Planning Committee of DOLGE. The written views I have seen are mainly from possibly older people who are worried about the effect on the environment, about their well being by the constuction of a Marina and by mariners concerned about safety.

 

As far as Mannin Angling is concerned they are mainly worried about the angling competition and whether the new marina will completely stop them fishing at Port St Mary.

 

Now provided these concerns are addressed and remedied as best they can - and of course you can't please all the people all the time - I would support the building of the Marina.

 

I have no vested personal interest either way.

 

Just let's get all the problems resolved before it goes ahead which as far as I can see is the opinion of the Planners.

Is that what one would call a volte face?

 

Whose interests are you now going to represent? Originally, you said you had been asked to attend in your capacity as Chairman of the Manx Countryside League (or whatever the correct name is) and by the Mannin Angling Club. In your former capacity, surely, you didn't need the views of some anonymous posters on this forum to form a view as to whether the scheme would be good for the Manx countryside! In your latter capacity, have you identified whether the Angling Club has any real cause for concern by this thread?

 

Apart from that, it is not clear whether any current PSM residents have responded.

 

All in all, I am not clear on your motive here!

[Charles Flynn]

Charles if your only role is as an unpaid, "expert witness' then why are you trying to whip-up some kind of opinion on this forum? Hardly seems appropriate!

 

 

Glad to be back

 

No I am not trying to whip up any opinion. I am trying to find out what Forum members think.

 

As a Manxman, I am most concerned that the final decision is right for the Island and the people of Port St Mary. It may well be that the Marina should be built but let's ensure that all the concerns are addressed and conditions are attached to any approval so that safety, environmental concerns, the peace of Port St Mary is not compromised. Port St Mary Commissioners who presumably have taken soundings from the people of of the village are opposing the present plans.

 

It is interesting to have the views of members of this Forum as it certainly sheds a different light on the debate. I am afraid there is something seriously wrong with the Planning Process as very few of these views have been submitted in writing to the Planning Committee of DOLGE. The written views I have seen are mainly from possibly older people who are worried about the effect on the environment, about their well being by the constuction of a Marina and by mariners concerned about safety.

 

As far as Mannin Angling is concerned they are mainly worried about the angling competition and whether the new marina will completely stop them fishing at Port St Mary.

 

Now provided these concerns are addressed and remedied as best they can - and of course you can't please all the people all the time - I would support the building of the Marina.

 

I have no vested personal interest either way.

 

Just let's get all the problems resolved before it goes ahead which as far as I can see is the opinion of the Planners.

Is that what one would call a volte face?

 

Whose interests are you now going to represent? Originally, you said you had been asked to attend in your capacity as Chairman of the Manx Countryside League (or whatever the correct name is) and by the Mannin Angling Club. In your former capacity, surely, you didn't need the views of some anonymous posters on this forum to form a view as to whether the scheme would be good for the Manx countryside! In your latter capacity, have you identified whether the Angling Club has any real cause for concern by this thread?

 

Apart from that, it is not clear whether any current PSM residents have responded.

 

All in all, I am not clear on your motive here!

 

 

No its not a volte face. I am being consistent and honest You are being mischievous once again but that is your privilege and long may it continue.

 

I have made my motive perfectly clear. I repeat it is to get the right decision and to get the opinion of Forum members which may well be helpful to the Mannin Angling Club. Open debate is not opposed by the club. They welcome it. So I have asked as amny people as possible to take part. I intend to continue to ask on other major planning issues so that decisions are not taken in private by a small minority. Why hasn't anyone else started this debate ages ago such as an MHK, local commissioner, or a civil servant from Government?

 

I am a witness for Mannin Angling not their spokesperson. I shall give evidence within my competence.

I was asked to be a witness because I am Chairman of one of the oldest conservation charitable societies on the Island which has been working for the people of this Island since 1938. We have real environmental concerns which are supported by other organisations such as the Mannin Angling Club, the Friends of the Earth, members of local diving clubs etc.

 

The present plans are not good for the environment and need to be altered to make them so.

 

It is an all island issue which requires Government money coming from all the taxpayers of the IOM so Presntly they don't make economic sense and public money is involved. From the passion which has been ignited they also don't make a lot of social sense. But all these issues can be resolved with goodwill.

 

Everyone can make observations. Obviously the people of Port St Mary are the ones who will mostly be affected. Therefore it is right that they should have a major say but not the exclusive one. The Port St Mary Commissioners speaking on their behalf are opposed to the present plans.

 

This present thread I would say has views mainly from younger people who want to liven the place up and are looking at it from an economic point of view. I have no way of knowing if any member of this Forum is a member of Mannin Angling Club whose concerns on the planning issues are perfectly valid.

 

Yes some PSM residents have responded but they wish to remain anonymous.

 

A public debate is a good thing whether on this Forum or elsewhere. But we do have to realise that each sector has their own agendas and this Forum consists of only a very small section of Manx society and as such is not necessarily representative of Manx society as a whole - neither am I. But we are all entitled to make observations and I am entitled to ask for it without conditions.

[Charles Flynn]

Is it not true that people who are strictly opposed to something will voice their opinions loudly as opposed to those who's views aren't quite as strong and will generally just keep quiet? Most people would welcome progress and improvement but may not be as inclined to be as vociferous as those who for whatever reason are vehemently against it.

 

I've lived in PSM for nearly a year and while it is quaint and quiet it's also obvious that it's a village in decline. Walk through the village (rather than drive) and it's plain to see. Speak to some of the older residents and yes they'll want to keep things unchanged. Speak to some of the younger population then you'll get a different picture. Speak to some of the people who sail into PSM during the summer months, and who would spend more money in the area if there were more facilities.

 

Are the environmental concerns really valid? Has there been a proper environmental study carried out? And (no disrespect intended) by independent professionals not connected with the Mannin Angling Club or the "No" crowd? Has this been made available to the residents of PSM?

 

All the information is at Government office and based on the information currently available the Governments own plannoing Committee have rejected the proposal. They want more information on the environmentalconcerns etc.

 

The Harbours Division of the Department of Transport commissioned an Environmental Statement from Posford Haskoning Ltd. The report does not cover future development into a marina or make any forecasts due to increased boating activity. It is a lengthy report but not all the questions about environment are answered which is where the problem is. Reports cost - so it will be up to Government to commission further work on this.

 

Are Government Reports independent? No one is completely free of bias which is why we need as many people as possible to respond. - not those who speak loudest, but also the quiet voices.

[Gladys]

 

 

No its not a volte face. I am being consistent and honest You are being mischievous once again but that is your privilege and long may it continue.

Thank you for that Charles, but I was not being mischeivous in my earlier post.

 

In your opening post you recited headlines from your evidence, which it would be reasonable to assume you had considered and researched before adopting them. It would also be reasonable to assume that in your role as Chairman of the Society for the Presevation of the Manx Countryside (I apologise, but I can never quite get the title of this, very worthy, organisation correct from memory), you would have your own, or the Society's, very definite views on the environmental impact of this scheme. So far so good; no problem with interest groups wanting to protect their own interests, that is what they are there for!

 

However, to then say, after the various posts, that perhaps overall the scheme is a good idea but needs more work on the environmental aspects, is in my view, a volte face. Perhaps, the original points you posted were not your evidence but the points which have been made to you by opponents of the scheme. You are, as yet, undecided (given the number of hats that you will have to wear) but would be interested to hear the views of other Forum members.

 

That would have been a more realistic opening gambit to canvass constructive debate rather than starting from a position in which you imply that your mind is made up, which will only generate many posts trying to unmake it!

 

However, that is you privilege and long may it continue!

[Charles Flynn]

Thanks for your advice. I am listening with respect.

 

You have the benefit of hindsight. I started the debate by posting a little of my evidence - a combination of my own research and the work of others. Because this matter has been going on so long views have become entrenched. If there had been more public consultation with a wider circulation through today's channels of communication it would have been very helpful.

 

All points need to be in the public arena. My mind is made up about the plans before the planning committee presently. But these plans can be altered with a further planning application which may be acceptable. It is an important application for the village and the Island. Therefore it is not best handled by closed minds unable to look for a solution through the maze.The SPMCE often make suggestions to the Planning Committee on ways to progress an application which at first sight is unacceptable.

 

From the people I have spoken to, the majority have very mixed feelings about this application. Environmentalists, fishermen have all expressed opinions to me that they are against the present plans but not against marinas. I am reflecting this viewpoint.

 

Whist I am very grateful for everyone's contribution up to now there is a need for hard evidence.

 

If anyone would like to comment on the environment al aspects with views backed up by experience and knowledge on fishing, marine life or on the social, economic matters it would be helpful.