Hamas Secures Victory

[cheesemonster2005]

The Israelis have been remarkably restrained in their responses to horrific atrocities committed by Palestinians and which have been funded by other neighbouring States. You shouldnt kid yourself this isnt the case. Israel has a significant military capability and has chosen not to exercise its full potential.

I think you might do well do benchmark Israel's actions against those taken by UK at various times in its history in the face of much less provocation than Israel has endured.

All the criticism directed against Israel seems to presuppose it, uniquely, should not act to defend itself.

Perhaps before you make further coment you could check out the short history of unprovoked military attacks and State sponsored terrorism against Israel since the 1960s. You might then appreciate just how restrained Israel's policy towards its neighbours, including Palestine, is.

Whichever way you want to look at it the whole situation in the Middle East has taken a turn for the worst as a result of the Hamas election victory.

 

The UK history is exactly that - history. I would have hoped that Israel, which claims to be the Jewish state, would've learnt that violence isn't the way to get what you want.

 

Israel is, in my opinion a Jewish state and supported also by her friendly states namely the USA which has no problems supplying advanced weapons for use against families in the occupied territories.

 

Israel has to live aside these states for as long as it exists and therfore should do all it can to make peace with them (and equally so should the neighbouring states). So far they've all been as bad as one another.

 

Please don't take my criticisms as a being critical of Jewish people. I dislike Israel but have many Jewish friends and colleagues whom dissassociate themselves with Israel (even some of those who are Israeli citizens).

[LoneWolf]

The UK history is exactly that - history. I would have hoped that Israel, which claims to be the Jewish state, would've learnt that violence isn't the way to get what you want.

Sorry but the UK, as you well know, would have no hestitation in defending its security against aggression from other states or for that matter in intervening in far away problems which might possibly effect its economic well being or security. I can think of at least two current examples.

 

Israel is, in my opinion a Jewish state and supported also by her friendly states namely the USA which has no problems supplying advanced weapons for use against families in the occupied territories.

Correction. Weapons have been supplied for the purpose of self defence. Any objective reading of the last 40 years would have to reach that conclusion. It would also conclude Israel has exercised its military capability with restraint given the circumstances.

 

Israel has to live aside these states for as long as it exists and therfore should do all it can to make peace with them (and equally so should the neighbouring states). So far they've all been as bad as one another.

There is no question, as you put it, that "they've all been as bad as each other" For the life of me, I have no recollection, at all, of any Israeli foreign policy statement which articulates its desire, for example, to push Iran into the sea ! You might also remember Egypt and Syria and Jordan making similar statements, over time, and even acting in tandem to launch an ill fated war against Israel's borders.

 

Perhaps you might explain what you mean by "as long as it exists" I find it it a very revealing statement.

 

Please don't take my criticisms as a being critical of Jewish people. I dislike Israel but have many Jewish friends and colleagues whom dissassociate themselves with Israel (even some of those who are Israeli citizens).

 

Why did I know you were going to say that ?

[matty]

Israel has been treating the Palestinians in ways not much different than the way they were treated by the Nazis.

 

Until Israel pulls out of the occupied terretories, who can blame the Palestinians for feeling the way that they do???

 

How would any of us on the IOM feel if a foreign power took over half of the Island, built a wall between the east & west of the Island and bulldozed our homes and bombed people on a regular basis??

 

I don't agree with the "policies" of suicide bombing innocent Israeli citizens, but I also don't condone many of the actions of Israel, which IMHO causes these reactions from the Palestinians. (Also contravening many UN resolutions).

 

The vote for Hamas is a bit of a surprise for me, but hey - if the US is so hung up about "democracy" in the Middle East, then shouldn't they support the vote of the Palestinian people

 

If Israel pulls out of the occupied terretories, then what do the Palestians have to "fight" about - give them their land back - why is this so difficult???

[LoneWolf]

Israel has been treating the Palestinians in ways not much different than the way they were treated by the Nazis.

That is an outrageous and totally unfounded statement. Perhaps you might wish to acquaint yourself with what actually happened to Jewish people during the holocaust. More than 6 million people were systematically murdered. The murder of these people was industrialised in purpose built facilities.

You should be ashamed of yourself for committing such rubbish to the public domain.

 

Until Israel pulls out of the occupied terretories, who can blame the Palestinians for feeling the way that they do???

 

You would do better do ask yourself how those territories came to be occupied in the first place.

Then you might understand why they are still occupied.

 

I don't agree with the "policies" of suicide bombing innocent Israeli citizens, but I also don't condone many of the actions of Israel, which IMHO causes these reactions from the Palestinians. (Also contravening many UN resolutions).

You have this exactly back to front. Well done!

It is the Israelis who have retaliated to terror attacks. Not the other way around.

The UN resolutions you refer to would leave Israel unable to defend itself. A position which would be unique in the world. They would also allow Arab nations to resume their military attacks on Israel. I know what every other country in the world would do. They would do the same as Israel.

In case of any doubt about Arab intentions towards Israel please read through this summary.

 

Arab Israeli Wars

 

The vote for Hamas is a bit of a surprise for me, but hey - if the US is so hung up about "democracy" in the Middle East, then shouldn't they support the vote of the Palestinian people

No they shouldnt. They should take the same position everone else has taken today.

Hamas are a disgusting organisation dedicated to killing innocent people. They have been responsible for numerous suicide bombings which have killed hundreds of people. They have reaffirmed their status as an armed organisation today.

If Israel pulls out of the occupied terretories, then what do the Palestians have to "fight" about - give them their land back - why is this so difficult???

For the simple and obvious reason that Israel would be a much more dangerous place to live in if the same peoples who engaged Israel in a series of unprovoked hostilities and campaigns of attrition and terrorism were gifted strategically important ground.

Israel is entitled to defend itself. As for the Palestinians, had they not embarked, in 1947, on a long and sustained campaign against Israeli security they would not be in the situation they find themselves in today. it is of their own making.

You will also appreciate, in your capacity as an expert on the middle east, that not all the occupied territories have anything at all to do with the Palestinians !

 

other than that we seem to be in total agreement B)

 

I would like you to retract your statement about the Nazis. It is exceptionally offensive.

[MrsTrellisfromNorthWales]

The EU observers (the EU apparently paid for the election) say that the election was fair and free.

 

So kind of a beacon to the Arab world.

 

Perhaps GWB will be less keen on spreading democracy around the world now if this is what happens.

[Rog]

What do I think?

 

Most people in the West simply don’t , won’t or can’t understand that follower of islam live in a different reality than Westerners.

 

Democracy Western style is anathema to followers if islam. It is a blasphemy in thought and in action. They don’t want it and more to the point can’t have it and remain islamic. They can elect local officials who deal with the mundane but they can not have a law making assembly such as a Western parliament as they already possess the most perfect set of laws that can be – as they see it. To even suggest a change to the laws is blasphemy with only one ‘legal’ penalty – death.

 

The election of hammas? Lies will be told by them and their supporters dressed up as truth, words and phrases will be used that will be interpreted as one thing but mean another, and people will die.

 

Many many people will die.

 

Hammas can not change from its charter, there are too many holy oaths associated with it. For a member of hammas to even suggest a change would be a blasphemy because of these oaths.

 

Eventually there will be open conflict between islam and secularism. The two can not co-exist as islam has at its very foundation the intent to take over all people in the world and that is one of its driving forces. Just look at history to see the future.

[Tugger]

Complying with the UN resolutions about changing the demographics in Jerusalem would not prevent Israel from defending itself.

 

Complying with UN resolutions about the settlements in the Occupied Territories (that, incidentally, includes East Jerusalem) would not prevent Israel from defending itself.

 

Building its security barrier along the green line, instead of unilaterally acquiring Palestinian land to satisfy the headcase settlers would not jeopardise Israeli security. Frankly, Lone Wolf, I'm surprised that you don't use the term "Disputed Territories", given your prevailing views.

 

And as for it not being official Likud policy that there should NEVER, under ANY circumstances, be a Palestinian state: I'm sure you'll be able to point me in the direction of a resolution rescinding that 2002 resolution to that effect. I won't hold my breath though

[simon]

Eventually there will be open conflict between islam and secularism

 

Bishops sit unelected in the House of Lords. Is the UK secular?

 

Darwin is being officially doubted in some US states. Is the US secular?

 

What about the Isle of Man?

[cheesemonster2005]

Israel has been treating the Palestinians in ways not much different than the way they were treated by the Nazis.

That is an outrageous and totally unfounded statement. Perhaps you might wish to acquaint yourself with what actually happened to Jewish people during the holocaust. More than 6 million people were systematically murdered. The murder of these people was industrialised in purpose built facilities.

You should be ashamed of yourself for committing such rubbish to the public domain.

 

OK his post was a bit extreme and it's not entirely true but Israel are getting there. Their actions against whole communities rather than just the criminals and terrorists are similar to the Nazis. Their actions against family members of suicide bombers are also reminisant of Nazi tactics.

 

That's where it ends though. The Israeli state is nowhere near as bad and 'generally' don't slaughter people (except for their leader Sharon). Remember the Israeli state does not represent the Jewish people, the majorotiy of whom don't live in Israel.

[Rog]

Eventually there will be open conflict between islam and secularism

 

Bishops sit unelected in the House of Lords. Is the UK secular?

 

Darwin is being officially doubted in some US states. Is the US secular?

 

What about the Isle of Man?

 

In both cases, yes, as although much of the biblical morality is incorporated in law there is no imposition of all biblical law and penal codes.

 

In the same way if a secular nation decided to legalise abortion then it would do so (and patently obviously has) in direct competition with biblical ‘law’, similarly homosexuality and a number of other cases.

 

In essence the laws of the countries are decided upon and maintained by elected representatives of the people who can introduce such laws as they wish. That is the whole nature of secular government. There are many people, myself included, that believe the imposition of a person into the law making process simply as a result of his position in the ‘church’ is very wrong – nonetheless that doesn’t detract from nations such as the UK, the US, and even the Isle of Man being in essence secular.

[Jacqueline]

Men (and women) have died fighting for democratic process.

 

Are you now going to say that democracy only works if it's a party you are in favour of rather than one chosen by the people?

 

Whether Hamas chose to take the political path or the terrorist path - the will of their people has been clearly demonstrated.

 

Time wil tell what may happen but for world powers to now criticise the democratic process is surely a dangerous road to travel.

[Rog]

The background of hammas ---

 

http://www.ict.org.il/organizations/orgdet.cfm?orgid=13

 

The hammas charter

 

http://www.ict.org.il/documents/documentdet.cfm?docid=14

 

To read the second is like watching paint dry but gives an insight into what hammas stands for and is just as valid today as the day it was written.

 

THIS is what is the REAL cause of conflict in the region. The islamic world do not hate the West because of Israel, they instead hate Israel because of the West. We in the West represent enlightenment and freedom and progress, the very antipathy of islam, and so are its greatest threat.

 

 

I wonder if the people who voted for hammas realised just what it was that they were voting for. In most cases doubt it.

[Jacqueline]

That may be so.

 

But would you still support the democratic process?

[Rog]

That may be so.

 

But would you still support the democratic process?

 

Absolutely.

 

The only factor to be considered by outsiders is the scope for change to laws and society that a democratically elected body has in the West and in countries that have Western style governments compared to the scope that exists in an islamic society.

 

Even so if the majority of people who voted for hammas have understood that they are effectively now declaring war between the PA and Israel then so be it.

 

There’s an old saying that people should take care in what they wish for – they might get it.

[AlexMcC]

I think it is also interesting to think that our culture once was fully interegrated with Christianity, just as Islam is now, in as much as everything we do was bound by religion, eg, going to hell, holding down education as to what agreed with the bible.

 

Although I am not intending to say Islam is the same, as in not changing to reflect the other changes that may take place in society, it would be interesting to see if Islam will still have as much a grip over the affairs of the countries it encompasses in 50 or 100 years time, or if it will become the founding blocks of the way people live their lives, and no so much control it.