matty Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 From Rog, What do I think? Most people in the West simply don’t , won’t or can’t understand that follower of islam live in a different reality than Westerners. Also Rog, most people don't, won't or can't understand followers of Judaism, or Christianity who in a "rational" sense live in a different reality to many others. IMHO, I'm trying to look at the whole situation from an "outside" point of view not clouded by religion, or party politics. LoneWolf, - I'm in no way supporting some of the tactics carried out by Hamas, and I did compare some of the tactics carried out by Nazis upon Jews as not too dissimiliar as those carried out by Israel upon Palestinians, and you're right saying that the Palestinians haven't been put in gas chambers, but their treatment from Israsel has been disgutsing, breaking many, many UN resolutions. All I'm trying to get across, is if you invade a nation and totally surpress them in very nasty ways, how can you be upset about an uprising? Unfortunately the way palestine is being surpressed, invokes the worst kind of retaliation like the suicide bombings, - like I said in my previous post, let Israel leave the occupied territories (read "occupied territories"), stop bombing settlements (& killing innocent civilians as well as so called "military targets" then Hamas have nothing to fight about. Hamas have been voted democratically by the people of Palestine, so in our "Western" outlook, for peace in the Middle East, we have to listen to these people and accept their vote as just and valid, and support them, if not then we don't support democracy in any way, shape or form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Git Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 like I said in my previous post, let Israel leave the occupied territories (read "occupied territories"), stop bombing settlements (& killing innocent civilians as well as so called "military targets" then Hamas have nothing to fight about. Don't Hamas want the destruction of Israel? I'm no expert on the situation, but I thought that was what Hamas ultimately wanted Edit - I see they dropped that call a couple of weeks ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 Don't Hamas want the destruction of Israel? I'm no expert on the situation, but I thought that was what Hamas ultimately wanted Edit - I see they dropped that call a couple of weeks ago No, they have NOT dropped that call and nor can they and remain ‘hammas’. It is a policy that is bound up in too many oaths to allah for anyone to do so. Read the charter to see where this is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 Men (and women) have died fighting for democratic process. Are you now going to say that democracy only works if it's a party you are in favour of rather than one chosen by the people? Whether Hamas chose to take the political path or the terrorist path - the will of their people has been clearly demonstrated. Time wil tell what may happen but for world powers to now criticise the democratic process is surely a dangerous road to travel. This is probably the most sensible post on this thread; the whole issue is highly emotive with views coming squarely down pro-, or anti-, Israel. What has been lost is the fact that Hammas have been democratically elected. You may not like it, or you may believe that mainstreaming Hammas has the promise to deliver less violence rather than more. Either way, Hammas now have to be recognised and dealt with as a legitimate democratic party; to do otherwise will definitely light the blue touch paper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haX0red_Account Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 hamas is chock-full of al-qaeda sympathisers- they'll soon be looking to export terror elsewhere. you get the government you deserve and the pals have chosen...there's no way that party will make a transition to peace, it's just like germany there- start your countdown now for www3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amadeus Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 Two interesting articles I came across while reading up on the recent developments: It seems, money could play a big role in the future direction: Palestinians Face Possible Cash Crunch Largely dependent on western aid, the Palestinian Authority could face financial difficulties following the election win of the radical group Hamas. Should Israel also begin to withhold tax revenues, the consequences for the West Bank and Gaza Strip could be severe. Full article here If I understand that correctly, then the withdrawal of financial aid (around $1 billion from various sources, such as European Commission/World Bank) could bring serious problems to the area, but withdrawing the funds would also mean that the rest of the world loses influence there, and more radical Islamic elements could fill the gap in finances - looks like an undesirable situation for any decision maker... Could Victory Be Undoing of Hamas? The Islamist winners of Wednesday's election are woefully unprepared to assume power. Two days after the election, the Hamas Party's weaknesses have become increasingly clear. With its intellectual leader in exile and many key cadres of the movement sitting in Israeli jails, Hamas is suffering from a power vacuum. Full article here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollag Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 Im just wondering here about Hamas, it does show one of the failings of the democratic system in that ogres can be democratically elected and bolox the whole thing up. Wonder what would happen if Hamas says shove your money we have new donors ie Saudi or Iran? That would really set the cat among the pigeons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 Im just wondering here about Hamas, it does show one of the failings of the democratic system in that ogres can be democratically elected and bolox the whole thing up. Wonder what would happen if Hamas says shove your money we have new donors ie Saudi or Iran? That would really set the cat among the pigeons. Not sure about Iran but Hamas have received very large sums of money from Saudi NGOs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 hamas is chock-full of al-qaeda sympathisers- they'll soon be looking to export terror elsewhere. you get the government you deserve and the pals have chosen...there's no way that party will make a transition to peace, it's just like germany there- start your countdown now for www3 Sorry, don't agree with our post, I'm hoping in a big way (hopefully not being naive) that now Hamas have been voted into power, they can take on the mantle of their task and be able to get accross their message without going by the violent route. Many countries have been saying that they will not communicate with Hamas, to me this is very dangerous. The situation in the UK for many years was "we will not engage in negotiations with terrorists" regarding the IRA situition - well since "negotiations" have been taking place, the "democratic" process has overtaken the gun, and we are now seing some progress in big, big ways. I sincerely wish that Israel stops it's disgusting treatment of Palestinians, and the rest of the world listen to the plight of this beleagured nation, and we can all work together on moving forward to a more peaceful resolution of these problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Sorry, don't agree with our post, I'm hoping in a big way (hopefully not being naive) that now Hamas have been voted into power, they can take on the mantle of their task and be able to get accross their message without going by the violent route. Many countries have been saying that they will not communicate with Hamas, to me this is very dangerous. The situation in the UK for many years was "we will not engage in negotiations with terrorists" regarding the IRA situition - well since "negotiations" have been taking place, the "democratic" process has overtaken the gun, and we are now seing some progress in big, big ways. I sincerely wish that Israel stops it's disgusting treatment of Palestinians, and the rest of the world listen to the plight of this beleagured nation, and we can all work together on moving forward to a more peaceful resolution of these problems. Putting aside the small matter that IRA/Sin Fein never had an agenda that included forcing the Protestant population of Ulster into the Irish Sea (so immediately removing an ‘apples and apples’ comparison with hammas) maybe you would take a little time to spell out firstly just what YOU believe the hammas agenda to be and also just what disgusting treatment of Palestinians you refer to? Seriously – half a dozen key points for each maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Sorry, don't agree with our post, I'm hoping in a big way (hopefully not being naive) that now Hamas have been voted into power, they can take on the mantle of their task and be able to get accross their message without going by the violent route. Many countries have been saying that they will not communicate with Hamas, to me this is very dangerous. The situation in the UK for many years was "we will not engage in negotiations with terrorists" regarding the IRA situition - well since "negotiations" have been taking place, the "democratic" process has overtaken the gun, and we are now seing some progress in big, big ways. I sincerely wish that Israel stops it's disgusting treatment of Palestinians, and the rest of the world listen to the plight of this beleagured nation, and we can all work together on moving forward to a more peaceful resolution of these problems. Putting aside the small matter that IRA/Sin Fein never had an agenda that included forcing the Protestant population of Ulster into the Irish Sea (so immediately removing an ‘apples and apples’ comparison with hammas) maybe you would take a little time to spell out firstly just what YOU believe the hammas agenda to be and also just what disgusting treatment of Palestinians you refer to? Seriously – half a dozen key points for each maybe? Sorry for stealing your thunder, matty, but I thought perhaps I'd start the ball rolling: "Israel's shooting of young girl highlights international hypocrisy, say Palestinians" http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1697825,00.html The article also refers to how the IDF a while ago shot a 13 year old boy in the back (the latest victim was a 9 year old girl). Also, I'm not convinced that aiming to dismantle the state of Israel is the same as wanting to drive all Jews into the sea. The IRA don't want Northern Ireland to be an entity separate from the Republic of Ireland any more than Hamas want Israel to be a separate entity from the remainder of Palestine. Or indeed that Likud want there EVER, under ANY circumstances, to be a Palestinian state Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 There are countless examples of kids being used as mules to carry bombs and explosives. Also kids being used to ‘test’ or ‘suss out’ the defence arrangements in place to counter terrorism. Furthermore the child was seen to be behaving in a suspicious manner reminiscent of a terrorist. What is a solider, faced with such a situation do? He can’t see the age of a person from a distance – should he wait for the bang? The child entered a danger zone – a danger zone both well marked and very well understood by the locals and from where attacks are regularly made against Israel. She is a sad casualty of war at worst. Then the teenager shot as he was making his way with a group of others along a marked security designated road – a road so designated as a result of previous Palestinian atrocities. Again, what should be done? Wait until it is clear how old he was or maybe wait until he and his mates had started to stone vehicles and an IDF patrol; was sent out to stop them – only to come under sniper fire as frequently has happened in the past? The issue here is one of Palestinian, or more precisely hammas propaganda in no small way made more effective by the well established and admitted practice of deliberately putting the very people they are supposed to represent and protect in harms way in order to benefit from what then takes place. The deliberate targeting of civilians and children is a Palestinian practice, not one adopted by Israeli forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 The "atrocities" were stone throwning, FFS. And the girl was nowhere near any Israeli civilians - there was plenty of margin between her actual status and being a real danger to any Israeli person. Plus the fact that children have previously been used to suss out security zones hardly excuses killing ALL children who are anywhere near such places (sorry, obviously I only mean ALL PALESTINIAN children). She was " seen to be behaving in a suspicious manner reminiscent of a terrorist", i.e. walking, breathing, looking around in a dodgy Arab fashion - just like Islamic Jihad operatives all do "He can’t see the age of a person from a distance " But he can see clearly enough to put a bullet in her. She's not a casualty of war, she is a murder victim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I do wonder how many people who are so all knowing about what takes place in Israel have even been to Israel or even in a war zone much less been involved in fighting. So many opinions – so little knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posters Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 There are countless examples of kids being used as mules to carry bombs and explosives. There are also countless examples of 'security forces' murdering innocent people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.