Hamas Secures Victory

[Tugger]

Oh PLEASE don't try to tell me that you're passing YOUR opinion off as unbiased. I mean, you might be considered a moderate at a Likud party function (STILL haven't found me that resolution rescinding their official policy that there should NEVER, under ANY circumstances, be a Palestinian state, have you?) or an Arutz 7 get together, but nowhere else, chum.

Likud isnt a terrorist organisation Hamas is: end of story.

Likud as a party is increasingly marginalised in Israel. Hopefully that will remain the case in the wake of recent events re: Palestine elections.

Likud is an extreme right wing party but the resolution you mention has yet to appear as published party policy. As of tonight its policy remains one of "there should be no unilateral declaration of a Palestinian State"

For the avoidance of doubt there is nothing in the policies of Likud, notwithstanding their extreme position, which incites Israelis to murder or to become suicide bombers. Compare that to Hamas.

Its you making the one sided assertions, not me. Its you who flagged Israeli soldiers killing Palestinian children but ignored Hamas terrorists killing Israeli children. It is you who has chosen not to mention Hamas using children as terrorists and thus ensuring they will be treated as suspicious or possible sources of danger.

 

And it's not the occupation I object too - I can certainly see security justifications for that. But the settlements are a different matter altogether, and are just plain THEFT

 

Its difficult to see how the occupations could ever be brought to an end given the hostility of those surrounding Israel.

Regarding the settlements Im afraid you need to make that objective study of the recent history of the region paying particular attention to how and why the occupied territories became occupied.

You are doubtless aware a small majority of Israelis do not support the settlements and you may recall, if you are minded to, that Sharon had demonstrated his willingness to bargain away the settlements in return for concrete security measures.

I do not imagine that willingness would still exist, even if Sharon was still about, given the election success of Hamas. I would certainly hope not.

 

Sharon was never going to give up all the settlements, as required by resolution 242 and the Geneva Conventions. Nor will the Israelis give up Jerusalem, despite the illegality of its annexation.

 

They expect to be able to break international law with impunity -with good reason! And to point this out does not require wilfull closing of one's eyes to the sins of the terrorists.

[LoneWolf]

Sharon was never going to give up all the settlements, as required by resolution 242 and the Geneva Conventions. Nor will the Israelis give up Jerusalem, despite the illegality of its annexation.

 

They expect to be able to break international law with impunity -with good reason! And to point this out does not require wilfull closing of one's eyes to the sins of the terrorists.

 

First we need to look at some historical facts regarding the occupied territories and UN resolution 242.

Israel came into the West bank and Gaza Strp during the 6 day war in 1967.

Prior to 1967 Egypt had occupied the Gaza Strip and Jordan had occupied the West Bank. Both those countries had occupied those territories in their invasions of 1948. lets be clear about this one: the Palestinians held no sovereignty over the occupied territories prior to the six day war in 1967.

We need to be absolutely clear about this. Israel took control of these territories by reason of a defensive war waged by Israel against a coalition of Arab Nations. The Palestinians were not disposessed of any territories, the Egyptians and Jordanians were.

With all due respect this historical fact blows an immediate hole in your argument and also in the arguments of the Islamic terrorists.

Furthermore, with the notable exceptions of Britain and Pakistan, there was no recognised sovereignty over either of these territories prior to the 6 day war. Britain only recognised Jordan's sovereignty not the Egyptian's.

Resolution 242 does not require Israel to withdraw from all the territories, as I expect you know, it only requires Israel to withdraw from territories to secure and recognised boundaries. Again, for the avoidance of doubt, and to remove any ambiguity, the USSR attempted, unsuccessfully, to change the wording of the resolution to "all the territories" . There is no requirement on Israel to withdraw from all the territories.

Un Security Council resolution 338 reinforced this and the expectation was that Israel would negotiate which parts of the territories would become part of Israel. It is this negotiation which the USA has repeatedly attempted to facilitate. Doesnt this put a different interpretation on USA policy than the terrorists would have you believe ? The USA is acting in accordance with the UN resolutions.

None of this sits comfortably with the terrorist line but, nevertheless, it is fact.

It is also a fact that Israel has failed to negotiate withdrawal to secure and recognised boundaries as required by the UN resolutions. This is a matter of some regret but it is in no way the sole responsibilty of the Israelis. How can they possibly negotiate with counter parties whose stated ambition is to drive them into the sea ?

Where does all this leave the Palestinians ? The ball is very much in their court. They can either start facing facts and seek negotiation of Israeli withdrawal to secure and recognised boundaries or can carry on peddling an imagined history as the basis for an imagined grievance and disgusting terror campaign.

Dont lose sight of the fact that Hamas are pursuing a policy of racial hatred (see their charter) and their desire to murder Jews is genuine and unrelated to the so called "Occupied Territories". ... They didnt have any territory to be occupied !!

[P.K.]

Your banging on about the settlements being a "buffer zone" might hold some weight as a justification if it were at all shared by the architects of the settler movement. It isn't, of course

The Occupied Territories are buffer zones - like the Golan. It's just common sense. Sure the "architects" of the settler movement tried to make them permanent but that was never the intention of those who set them up. Or did you miss how they were removed from Gaza?

The Israelis are, of course, the largest recipients of US aid in both absolute and per capita terms. The aid is mainly in armaments, of course. I wonder if the gun that shot this 9 year old girl through the neck was paid for out of the US aid budget.

But most of the "aid" from the US to Israel is private donations. The Palestinians are almost completly supported by organised international aid. They have no income at all. Hopefully it will curtail the excesses of the crazies. As to a nine-year-old girl being shot in the neck well guess what? That's what happens when people shoot at one another. I really can't see how anyone can be surprised at civilian casualties of all ages in an urban terrorist war.

 

Edited to add PA funding link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4664152.stm

[matty]

Seems to be turning into the regular "shit-fight" this one!!!

 

Found an interesting link here :- "Palestinian" history - so as Lonewolf pointed out, it was the "Jordanians" who "lost" territory, - many Jordaninans & Palestinians claim themselves to be one & the same "race" if that is the right word.

 

- So who's to blame??

 

Well if the British hadn't organised the "re-settling" of "Israel" (which didn't really exist as a state until 1948) - we wouldn't have had a "Palestinian" war and we wouldn't have had any of this mess in the first place (IMHO!).

 

But also looking at the above link, then the Mogols should have just as much right to Israel as the Jews.....

 

It's all a bit of a mess really.

 

Can we expect the Pelstinians to stop suicide bombing Israel, when they are being surpressed the way they are??

 

Can we hope that Israel stop breaking UN resolutions and give the Palestinians a fair chance in life???

 

All I hope for is that there can be some sort of peaceful resolution of these problems - only the Palestinians & Israelis can actually sort this out at the end of the day - let's hope they can at least have a go at doing it peacefully.

[Tugger]

I can't see how anyone can be so blase about a nine year old girl being shot in the neck. I guess if you take the view that "they're only Palestinians" it makes that view a little easier to hold.

 

Also, the people who set up the settlements did it so that they could keep that land forever, not so they could be used as a bargaining chip. That settlements in Sinai and Gaza have been given up infuriates them, but Sharon basically thought that he would either have to give them up or suffer ethnic dilution in Israel, and we can't have that, can we?

 

I'd be VERY surprised if private aid to Israel exceeded the US$3 billion per year that the US government gives them. Doubtless you have a source for this...

[Rog]

Seems to be turning into the regular "shit-fight" this one!!!

 

Found an interesting link here :- "Palestinian" history - so as Lonewolf pointed out, it was the "Jordanians" who "lost" territory, - many Jordaninans & Palestinians claim themselves to be one & the same "race" if that is the right word.

 

There was no Jordan until 1947 when Britain declared the state of Trans Jordan independent. The land that Trans Jordan was founded upon was itself misappropriated by the British from the land that the British had been mandated to govern whilst setting up the Jewish Homeland as defined by the League of Nations following the collapse of the ottoman Empire after WW1.

 

There is a VERY strong argument that the 'Palestinian' homeland IS Jordan. It was tribal differences and failure to recognise the Hashemite rule that actually prevented the (now called due to arafat) 'Palestinians from going into Jordan in spote of being invited, and it was their bad behaviour that got the kicked out when they eventually did after failing in a war againbst Israel.

 

- So who's to blame??

 

Well if the British hadn't organised the "re-settling" of "Israel" (which didn't really exist as a state until 1948) - we wouldn't have had a "Palestinian" war and we wouldn't have had any of this mess in the first place (IMHO!).

 

The land of the people of the tribes of Israel has been in existence since the time before the Old Testament was written. You can even find the borders of Eretz Israel in Numbers (numbers 34 I think ---)

 

But also looking at the above link, then the Mogols should have just as much right to Israel as the Jews.....

 

Rubbish.

 

It's all a bit of a mess really.

 

Can we expect the Pelstinians to stop suicide bombing Israel, when they are being surpressed the way they are??

 

Suppressed? Mildly restrained more like it. There have been many periods when Palestinians have worked in Israel, have owned and operated business in Israel, and have done very well out of it. It iwas precisely because it became obvious that the Palestinians in the street were seeing benefit to cooperation that the leadership led by the awful arafat instigated unrest as only with a dissatisfied population could he keep his pot boiling. And in the case of homicide bombing – this is not seen as suicide by the perpetrators – the motivation is jihad and martyrdom not desperation make no mistake.

 

Can we hope that Israel stop breaking UN resolutions and give the Palestinians a fair chance in life???

 

Israel has NOT broken ANY UN resolutions. And the ONLY thing stopping the people now referred to as the Palestinians is their own actions.

 

The UN distinguishes between two sorts of Security Council resolution. Those passed under Chapter Six deal with the peaceful resolution of disputes and entitle the council to make non-binding recommendations. Those under Chapter Seven give the council broad powers to take action, including warlike action, to deal with “threats to the peace, breaches of the peace, or acts of aggression”.

None of the resolutions relating to the Israeli-Arab conflict comes under Chapter Seven

 

All I hope for is that there can be some sort of peaceful resolution of these problems - only the Palestinians & Israelis can actually sort this out at the end of the day - let's hope they can at least have a go at doing it peacefully.

 

They can – Israel has tried time and time again but the Palestinians, because so many are driven by islam, can never accept a peaceful settlement that recognises Israel and the right of Israel to exist until they put islam out of politics.

 

The election of the islamic hammas terrorists as the government can only end in tears.

 

Even if they wanted to hammas can not recognise Israel as members are bound by ‘holy oaths’ not to do so, only if a ‘son-of-hammas’ were to come along – in other words a left wing secular party rather than a left wing religious party which is what hammas is, could progress be possible as only such a party could recognise the right of Israel to exist. The likelihood of this happening? Don’t hold your breath The mullahs have far too much of a hold on the guy in the street to ever let this happen for the foreseeable future and by that I mean generations to come.

 

Matty, I have no doubt that you have a good heart, that is self evident, but I fear that, as with many others, your knowledge and understanding of what is taking place and why it is being done is limited.

[Tugger]

Anyone who thinks that Israel complies with the many resolutions relating to, for instance, not changing the demographic in Jerusalem (so that they can keep the Arab bits forever) or the settlements needs their head examining.

 

But of course Rog doesn't actually "think" this - he's just lying!

[Rog]

Anyone who thinks that Israel complies with the many resolutions relating to, for instance, not changing the demographic in Jerusalem (so that they can keep the Arab bits forever) or the settlements needs their head examining.

 

But of course Rog doesn't actually "think" this - he's just lying!

 

Have a care.

 

Criticise me, criticise my views and opinions, even ridicule them, but don’t accuse me of lying.

[Tugger]

Anyone who thinks that Israel complies with the many resolutions relating to, for instance, not changing the demographic in Jerusalem (so that they can keep the Arab bits forever) or the settlements needs their head examining.

 

But of course Rog doesn't actually "think" this - he's just lying!

 

Have a care.

 

Criticise me, criticise my views and opinions, even ridicule them, but don’t accuse me of lying.

 

Well, given your view that Israel is not in breach of any UN resolutions, what else can one conclude?

[P.K.]

I'd be VERY surprised if private aid to Israel exceeded the US$3 billion per year that the US government gives them. Doubtless you have a source for this...

The Palestinians receive more Foreign Aid per capita than any other group on the planet. It was in my Saturday Grauniad so it must be true. There you go....

The people who set up the settlements did it so that they could keep that land forever, not so they could be used as a bargaining chip. That settlements in Sinai and Gaza have been given up infuriates them, but Sharon basically thought that he would either have to give them up or suffer ethnic dilution in Israel, and we can't have that, can we?

Errrr... of course the settlers wanted to keep the land forever. That's why they, errrr..... settled it? But they're not in government, are they? So it's not up to them to make the decisions, is it? So they got kicked off, didn't they? Kicked off Egyptian territory, NOT Palestinian of which there is no such thing. The other buffer zones are Syrian and Jordanian. The Palestinians per se have no claims over that territory either.

I can't see how anyone can be so blase about a nine year old girl being shot in the neck. I guess if you take the view that "they're only Palestinians" it makes that view a little easier to hold.

I'm not blase about it, I'm just not in the least bit surprised by it. You may take the view that "they're only Palestinians" but I never would.

[Tugger]

"The Palestinians receive more Foreign Aid per capita than any other group on the planet. It was in my Saturday Grauniad so it must be true."

 

That's a separate issue. You said that private aid to Israel exceeded US government aid. I don't believe you.

 

"But they're not in government, are they?"

 

At the time the settlement policy commenced, the government had every intention of keeping them. For ever.

 

"NOT Palestinian of which there is no such thing"

 

Nice to see your true colours being posted up. Why not just call them "cockroaches". Elected Israeli MKs do, after all!

 

"The Palestinians per se have no claims over that territory either"

 

They have the same right to self determination as the Jews demand.

[Rog]

Anyone who thinks that Israel complies with the many resolutions relating to, for instance, not changing the demographic in Jerusalem (so that they can keep the Arab bits forever) or the settlements needs their head examining.

 

But of course Rog doesn't actually "think" this - he's just lying!

 

Have a care.

 

Criticise me, criticise my views and opinions, even ridicule them, but don’t accuse me of lying.

 

Well, given your view that Israel is not in breach of any UN resolutions, what else can one conclude?

 

Did you read much less understand that there are various KINDS of UN resolutions, some of which are mandatory and some of which are NOT.

 

There are NO mandatory UN resolutions made against Israel hence Israel is NOT in breach of any.

[P.K.]

"The Palestinians receive more Foreign Aid per capita than any other group on the planet. It was in my Saturday Grauniad so it must be true."

 

That's a separate issue. You said that private aid to Israel exceeded US government aid. I don't believe you.

Fine by me. Despite what you think the aid to the PA and unltimately Hamas IS the issue. It might just convert Hamas from a terrorist organization to a political one. Let's all hope it does.

 

"But they're not in government, are they?"

 

At the time the settlement policy commenced, the government had every intention of keeping them. For ever.

You mean the political party in power at the time? They change and so does the policy. It's called global politics. It's like all those idiots who bang on and on about Osama bin Laden making deals with US companies in the dim and distant past as though it's the ultimate proof of some global conspiracy. Complete and utter bunkum of course. Because that was then, this is now. In politics you hopefully learn from the past to deal with the present and plan for the future. I wish.

 

"NOT Palestinian of which there is no such thing"

 

Nice to see your true colours being posted up. Why not just call them "cockroaches". Elected Israeli MKs do, after all!

Correctly pointing out that Gaza is Egyptian territory is "posting up my true colours"? There's nothing wrong with telling it like it is. Maybe you should try it. It has a certain charm.

 

"The Palestinians per se have no claims over that territory either"

 

They have the same right to self determination as the Jews demand.

And they have determined that a terrorist organization, Hamas, will lead them to it. You know, that's not the shrewdest move they could have made when you think about the real issue which is, of course, all that foreign aid without which the whole of the PA could dissolve into anarchy.

[Tugger]

"Despite what you think"

 

Despite what you SAID, you mean. You can't just make all this stuff up and then treat it as gospel. As far as I can see, you LIED, plain and simple. I don't even see where the lie gets you...

 

I know about Chapter VI and Chapter VII resolutions, but it's specious to try to claim that Israel is "not in breach" of the numerous Chapter VI resolutions just because they lack an enforcement mechanism. Because the fact is, it IS in breach of those resolutions. And it is about time that some of them were passed under Chapter VII.

 

As for "telling it like it is", I've seen the "there are no Palestinians" claim numerous times before. It's always coupled with a desire to try to deny them fundamental rights, such as self determination. Go on, call them cockroaches, after all, you pride yourself on saying what you think!.

 

"And they have determined that a terrorist organization, Hamas, will lead them to it"

 

Like the Israelis-to-be did with Irgun and the Stern Gang, you mean? It certainly worked for them.

 

And the FACT is that the settlements in the Occupied Territories were NOT designed as buffer zones. That's a side effect made up ex post facto as a convenient excuse. They wanted to keep ALL that land, but have realised that they can't without suffering some form of unspeakable racial dilution.

[P.K.]

At the end of the day we'll all just have to wait and see what happens.

 

However I'm definitely with Rog on one thing. Everyone believes in different things. I have no problem with that as tolerance is just a mature attitude. What I do have a problem with is when someone believes something else and for some reason they seem to think it means they can accuse others with different views of lying. People like that are just intolerant bigots. Try and avoid being one of them.