Tugger Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 At the end of the day we'll all just have to wait and see what happens. However I'm definitely with Rog on one thing. Everyone believes in different things. I have no problem with that as tolerance is just a mature attitude. What I do have a problem with is when someone believes something else and for some reason they seem to think it means they can accuse others with different views of lying. People like that are just intolerant bigots. Try and avoid being one of them. Try to avoid saying things that aren't true. Then I'll consider your request Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 OK, let’s just look at some breaches of UN resolutions regarding Israel. How ‘bout we start with UN181. As the British Mandate ended on 14 May 1948, seven Arab armies attacked the Jewish state. UN Secretary-General (Trygve Lie) called this "the first armed aggression which the world had seen since the end of the [second World] War." The Arab League actually formally rejected resolution 181 as justification for its invasion, the first open and deliberate breach of the UN Charter. The Arab League Secretary-General (Azzam Pasha) said "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." His words. Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem proclaimed in his own (translated) words " I declare a holy war, my Muslim brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all! " SOURCES --- UN Records, the Israel Foreign Ministry, “The Birth of Israel” by Jorge Garcia-Granados, “Myths and Facts” by Bard and Himelfarb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 People like that are just intolerant bigots. Try and avoid being one of them. Try to avoid saying things that aren't true. Then I'll consider your request Thank you for the absolutely perfect illustration. At this point The Defence rests.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 People like that are just intolerant bigots. Try and avoid being one of them. Try to avoid saying things that aren't true. Then I'll consider your request Thank you for the absolutely perfect illustration. At this point The Defence rests.... Thanks for playing, and buh bye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 OK, let’s just look at some breaches of UN resolutions regarding Israel. How ‘bout we start with UN181. As the British Mandate ended on 14 May 1948, seven Arab armies attacked the Jewish state. UN Secretary-General (Trygve Lie) called this "the first armed aggression which the world had seen since the end of the [second World] War." The Arab League actually formally rejected resolution 181 as justification for its invasion, the first open and deliberate breach of the UN Charter. The Arab League Secretary-General (Azzam Pasha) said "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." His words. Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem proclaimed in his own (translated) words " I declare a holy war, my Muslim brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all! " SOURCES --- UN Records, the Israel Foreign Ministry, “The Birth of Israel” by Jorge Garcia-Granados, “Myths and Facts” by Bard and Himelfarb. Good start Rog. Now please. do continue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Good start Rog. Now please. do continue... My consultancy rate for UK work is presently £220 per hour plus VAT. I would not expect that any incidental expenses would apply in this case. If you want me to continue then please provide me with a billing address I will submit a specification of what I will deliver along with a formal quotation. On receipt of a written order, two business references and a bank reference, I will undertake the work. If on the other hand you would like to have my thoughts on other UN resolutions then specify each one and I will consider commenting on them gratis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 my hourly rate is £350 per hour, and you've already wasted plenty of my time with your nonsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 [ I will submit a specification of what I will deliver along with a formal quotation. Wow, you write your own specs? Your reports can never be wrong then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haX0red_Account Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 "And they have determined that a terrorist organization, Hamas, will lead them to it" Like the Israelis-to-be did with Irgun and the Stern Gang, you mean? It certainly worked for them. yeah, sixty years ago when the world was a different place! bit like saying authorities dealt with the problem of weird old dears who made potions 400 years ago by burning them at the stake- therefore, let's reinstate witchburning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 [ I will submit a specification of what I will deliver along with a formal quotation. Wow, you write your own specs? Your reports can never be wrong then! Off thread --- Often I get faced with a client who really don’t know what he wants in terms of deliverables, and the best and easiest way to deal with this is to present a specification that includes deliverables for him to review and approve or change. This is by no means a unique situation and I know of several major IT manufacturers who actually CHARGE for tendering for an order – unless of course it is an unsolicited bid – simply on the basis of the amount of work that has to be put into a bid. Often significant design work is required up front to adequately dimension the work involved and the materials required not to mention investigation that may actually require the spending of significant amounts of money to gain access to pre-existing products that must be integrated into the end product. Very often in such cases the original contractor holds the Intellectual Property Rights and will charges like an angry rhino when asked to make them accessible to another contractor who is just bidding to extend or enhance an existing system. But I’m rambling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I'd be VERY surprised if private aid to Israel exceeded the US$3 billion per year that the US government gives them. Doubtless you have a source for this... Yesterday I wasn't going to bother further with this. Like the so-called "Truth" about 9-11 thread some people are just so intolerant of the opinions of others if they don't happen to match their own that I'm sure they don't actually read much of what has been written. They are just far too busy putting in their tuppence-worth. But it seems that Israel will withhold payments due to the PA of already some $50m. Which should bring things nicely to a head. The enormous difference in aid to Israel and the Palestinians is all about the US Jewish lobby. They are extremely powerfull both in financial and political terms. Every year the US puts through to Israel about $2.5 to $3 billion in aid on the nod, as everyone knows. After all, they don't exactly make a secret of it. Not only because of the Jewish lobby but also because effectively the UN created Israel, the UN is mostly funded by the US so they can't let it fail and it does US interests no harm at all to have a vassel state in the Mid East, albeit one that does tend to go it's own way every now and again. There is also an awful lot of private aid and donations that go into infrastructure projects like schools, hospitals and so on. I'm not going to bother to google for examples but names like Goldman Sachs, Lehman and even good-old M&S play their part. All the outside money going in is not huge against a GDP of $135 Billion but it's enough to fund armed forces out of proportion to the size and population of the country. But then they need them. It is interesting how it can get out there. A US Jewish company will donate say $1 million to a scheme in India (pop. 1 Billion plus) and another $1 million to Israel (pop. 6.2 Million) for exactly the same scheme! Sure it looks out of proportion but if you're Jewish and running the show it makes perfect sense. Also if you are looking to invest overseas I'm sure you would prefer to put your money and build a business in a reasonably stable, democratic, pro-western country rather than to a disparate group squatting on land that belongs to Egypt and with a terrorist organisation running it. A choice that is not exactly rocket science and I'm sure even Tugger can grasp that one. Now the nightmare scenario is arriving. Iran is developing nuclear weapons because their neighbour, one Saddam Hussein, killed thousands of Pasdaran with WMD and the Iranians have no intention of letting it happen again. Unfortunately Iran also supports Hamas, Hizbollah, Islamic Jihad and so on. The danger is that they will develop weapons and pass them on to the nutters. Bye bye Tel Aviv. Iran can't be stopped by invasion because of the terrain and the fact they have a huge army. They are also awash with oil and will probably upset the markets if restrained by sanctions. What I expect to happen is that Iran will increase it's capacity to bring weapons grade material much closer. The US will use it's intelligence resources to pinpoint where it is happening. They will pass this on the the IDF and at the agreed time the Israeli Air Force takes the lot out. Of course, the Iranians will howl with rage and turn to the International Community for support to censure Israel. I suspect the only support they get will be from Zimbabwe and Syria. Israel will point out that the fruitcake running Iran stated he would "Wipe Israel off the map!" and rightly claim self defence. The UN will point out it told Iran to do no such thing and the whole lot gets swept under the carpet - until the next time... Propping up the regional super-power with billions in aid, investments and grants looks like a very shrewd investment to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 It might look like a shrewd investment, but I notice that you STILL haven't backed up your earlier assertion with any evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Dear me, it's like a dog worrying a bone. And it's not as if I have to prove anything to anyone! Got a couple of minutes break so:- I believe the $3 Billion is $2 in armaments etc (US military hardware) and $1 in developement aid. I just searched on Goldman Sachs India and Israel from my earlier example (picked India because of the huge population) and to my surprise turned up: http://fdncenter.org/pnd/news/story.jhtml?id=111300029 The numbers are $100K less than my example but you get the idea. Then private donations Israel turned up this from 2001 : http://www.mediamonitors.net/susan3.html Private donations to Israel are tax-deductible and total about $1 billion annually. This does not include the Israeli bonds sold in the US for $500 million each year. $1.5 Billion for starters before the corporate stuff. Of course, as all the Conspiracy Theory Nerds have demonstrated, you can find just about any justfication for the most rediculous points of view on the www. But if you really are that desperate to pin down what are nebulous figures anyway a lot of donations to Israel are a US tax break. So if you care to wade through the IRS site you will probably find a more definitive figure. Then there are all the Company Filings which list where their money has gone. You could plough through all of them as well (a little tip here, I would advise you to stick to those with Jewish sounding names). Strangely I can't help thinking it's just the sort of task you will enjoy..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 So you've managed to show that the private donations that you can find are substantially less than the US government aid numbers. Well done! And then you expect me to believe some ludicrous made-up hunch that you have that there are "corporate donors" giving another billion (or more) of their shareholders' money away. I don't believe you. I think your initial statement was either (a) a lie or (B) wrong. Now you've been caught out you're scrabbling round for any old bollocks you can drum up to try to show that your initial statement wasn't wrong (which in fact it was). And the reason I am continuing to drive this point home is to make it clear to anyone who can still be bothered to read this exchange that nothing that you state as fact, in the absence of supporting evidence, can be accepted as such, on account of your confidently making statements which are 100% incorrect. Nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 EXACTLY the response I expected, which was why I wasn't really bothered about looking. However I'm definitely with Rog on one thing. Everyone believes in different things. I have no problem with that as tolerance is just a mature attitude. What I do have a problem with is when someone believes something else and for some reason they seem to think it means they can accuse others with different views of lying. People like that are just intolerant bigots. Try and avoid being one of them. Try to avoid saying things that aren't true. Then I'll consider your request You just go on proving it, don't you.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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