The old goat Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 I was wondering Old Goat, if you care to answer my question about why you, a scholar of medieval language and culture chose to live in Holland? Was it for a better payslip? Or, are you a horny old goat? Or is there some other reason? Also, you say more and more people are turning to Islam. I haven't met anyone who wants to give up their bacon butties for that reason, have you? My family live in Holland as we are part of a large and growing community that is established there. There are a number of reasons why. Today most of us see the ability to help our fellow Muslims by working in the West and sending some of the proceeds back as both a real help to enable our people to progress in a way that they would not be able to do as so much oppression and exploitation takes place by Western businessmen using those who can not make the journey as cheap labour, and also as a way of extending Islam which is the holy duty of every Muslim. I think that there is something that you people simply do not understand and that is the place that Islam has relative to our lives. For us our lives ARE Islam. For us it is not a case of “I am a Muslim” as is the case for you where you might say “I am a Christian” or “I am a Roman Catholic” as a thing that is a thing that you associate with. For us to say “I am a Muslim” is to say that is the way that my life is structured in every way and at all times. Are your people turning to Islam? Yes they are. Recently I attended a wedding in Bradford and was both surprised and delighted at the number of ethnic English people who have become believers. It is the same with other races, wherever people are oppressed and they hear the word they are taking the path to submission to the will of Allah and finding the true joy and peace that comes with that. Here is a place where some information can be found about English Believers. http://www.islamfortoday.com/england01.htm and if you go to the “root” site you will find much more about conversion. http://www.islamfortoday.com/converts.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The old goat Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 I will answer this rude and profoundly ignorant thing. Your words make me sad as they show just how much Islam is needed on your Island, especially by you and those like you. and who gives u god given right to say what the ppl of the isle of man need, and more so what i need, Allah by way of His Prophet (SAW) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The old goat Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 How then would you answer if it was put that it is you and others like you who bring disrespect upon Islam? That those who see such "disrespect" should learn more about Islam and they will see that trying to compare Islamic values with those of the West is bound to cause confusion as our values are so different from yours. Ours are pure decent and just and above all selfless. Such is not the case with Western so called values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Git Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Today most of us see the ability to help our fellow Muslims by working in the West and sending some of the proceeds back as both a real help to enable our people to progress in a way that they would not be able to do as so much oppression and exploitation takes place by Western businessmen using those who can not make the journey as cheap labour, You would do well to keep in mind that same boat is fueled by oil that more likely than not comes from a country in which Islam is at least the dominant influence, and that given the state of the British economy bought on credit that same country will have let you have as being bankrupt, which you nationally are, there is no way that you could pay for it in cash. So everything that's wrong is the fault of Western businessmen. Why does your lot always seem blame everything that's wrong in their lives on the West. I'm sick and tired of "help, we're being oppressed" as your excuse for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 That those who see such "disrespect" should learn more about Islam and they will see that trying to compare Islamic values with those of the West is bound to cause confusion as our values are so different from yours. Ours are pure decent and just and above all selfless. Such is not the case with Western so called values. You suffer from an excess of pride. "Walk not proudly on the earth: verily thou shalt never cleave the earth, nor reach to the mountains in height!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The old goat Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 That those who see such "disrespect" should learn more about Islam and they will see that trying to compare Islamic values with those of the West is bound to cause confusion as our values are so different from yours. Ours are pure decent and just and above all selfless. Such is not the case with Western so called values. You suffer from an excess of pride. "Walk not proudly on the earth: verily thou shalt never cleave the earth, nor reach to the mountains in height!" No, Lonan3, it is not pride, it is knowledge. If we follow Islam and Sha'ia then we are submitting to the will and direction of Almighty God. To not do the same must be impure. That is not pride, it is simple truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted February 20, 2008 Author Share Posted February 20, 2008 That those who see such "disrespect" should learn more about Islam and they will see that trying to compare Islamic values with those of the West is bound to cause confusion as our values are so different from yours. Ours are pure decent and just and above all selfless. Such is not the case with Western so called values. You suffer from an excess of pride. "Walk not proudly on the earth: verily thou shalt never cleave the earth, nor reach to the mountains in height!" No, Lonan3, it is not pride, it is knowledge. If we follow Islam and Sha'ia then we are submitting to the will and direction of Almighty God. To not do the same must be impure. That is not pride, it is simple truth. Rot - you submit to an interpretation of Islam and Sha'ia - you have no idea if that interpretation is correct or not and must daily struggle with that fact (acknowledging that is the only form of Jihad I have any time for). Your claims that Muslim countries are pure and decent, just and above all selfless flies in the face of reality - why is that - maybe because they are following an incorrect interpretation of Islam - but what is the correct interpretation? - Is beheading a person for witchcraft pure and decent (do you believe in spells and incantations,or are you able to understand these are superstitions and ignorance?), how about killing a daughter who wishes to persue a life which her parents/family disapproves of? Must you believe in Djinns and spirits just because they are mentioned in the Koran, could it be allegory? Now how to make the world a better place - some people call for a return to Medieval Islam, others for modernization, some for secularization - how to manage complex, diverse societies - that is the challenge of this age and I see little guidance in the Koran in how to manage internet service providers, or advice on the territorality of satelite communications. There may be a pure and decent way to structure a society, but nobody knows what it is - you may call it Islam, but you only have your belief that what you follow is the correct path - many people even within your own faith will say you are misguided in your particular interpretation - ask a Shia or a Sufi etc. In my eyes the image of your religion is not positive in the slightest, it comes over as dogmatic, rigid, unable to adapt to change. It is used to further violence, oppression of women and those who wish to persue an alternative lifestyle. When ever I read of the Morality Police I think of the verse "there should be no compulsion in religion" - you are unable to accept that and wish to enforce your view of morality on others - don't be surprised when you find people don't accept that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 If we follow Islam and Sha'ia then we are submitting to the will and direction of Almighty God. To not do the same must be impure. That is not pride, it is simple truth. If all the people who believe that they know 'The Truth' were to leave, the world would be a much more civilised and contented place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 For me history shows the word should be subvert. There is no subversion needed. More and more people want to become Muslim in the lands that we are now entering and the option to take up a proper way of life becomes available to them. It has always been thus since Muslims first brought Islam to the world. A proper way of life! According to whom I wonder? I can assure you it's not according to the 96+% of the UK population. A simple clash that springs to mind is the way our laws insist that everyone is educated - including women! Shame on us for not taking up a proper way of life eh? This issue seems to me to be very simple. Our culture and that of many other western democracies is basically anglo-saxon christian. Our Muslim minorities are kicking-off over the way part of our culture is to take the piss out of religion - it's what we do. They claim we should respect their idols, well, why should we? It's their religion that is intolerant, not ours. Trying to force us to behave as they do is an attempt to subvert us away from our own culture and religion. You have neither culture nor follow any religion other than those things associated with selfishness and denial of the truth. Ahhhh - you're talking about Thatcherism. Sorry and all that but like an awful lot in the UK I can't stand the old bat. I'm also a Christian and live my life according our moral values including treating everyone with fairness and respect. This means not forcing women into rediculous religious costumes because their men are so weak they might otherwise be "tempted" - pathetic. Part of my culture is also tolerance and taking the piss out of religion, including yours. You don't like it? Fine - you can leave at any time. Would we be able to get the unbelievers to willingly accept our laws and requirements? Of course not. Which is why you kill them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 I'm also a Christian and live my life according our moral values including treating everyone with fairness and respect. This means not forcing women into rediculous religious costumes because their men are so weak they might otherwise be "tempted" - pathetic. Part of my culture is also tolerance and taking the piss out of religion, including yours. You don't like it? Fine - you can leave at any time. Something not quite right here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Here's a little tip to help you: Religion isn't a person... I just thought you'd like to know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The old goat Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 That those who see such "disrespect" should learn more about Islam and they will see that trying to compare Islamic values with those of the West is bound to cause confusion as our values are so different from yours. Ours are pure decent and just and above all selfless. Such is not the case with Western so called values. You suffer from an excess of pride. "Walk not proudly on the earth: verily thou shalt never cleave the earth, nor reach to the mountains in height!" No, Lonan3, it is not pride, it is knowledge. If we follow Islam and Sha'ia then we are submitting to the will and direction of Almighty God. To not do the same must be impure. That is not pride, it is simple truth. Rot - you submit to an interpretation of Islam and Sha'ia - you have no idea if that interpretation is correct or not and must daily struggle with that fact (acknowledging that is the only form of Jihad I have any time for). Your claims that Muslim countries are pure and decent, just and above all selfless flies in the face of reality - why is that - maybe because they are following an incorrect interpretation of Islam - but what is the correct interpretation? I have not claimed that Muslim countries are pure and decent, what I assert, a thing that far supersedes any idea of “claim” is that Islam is pure and decent. Is the interpretation of Islam and Sha’ia correct? That depends entirely on what manner you choose to interpret the meaning of what is disclosed and how you choose to make use of that interpretation. Islam differs from your churches, we have no clergy, we have no ‘Islam’ central control, what we have is the disclosed word and will of Allah and the sayings, acts and deeds of His Prophet (SAW). From these we have scholars who examine and make commentary upon them and how they might be applied to what they see in life. That does not mean that there are certain things that do not require interpretation, things such as murder, theft, adultery, insulting of Islam, and these things are set out explicitly along with the lawful punishment that MUST be enacted by those who commit such sins. - Is beheading a person for witchcraft pure and decent (do you believe in spells and incantations,or are you able to understand these are superstitions and ignorance?), Yes, beheading a confessed witch is a required act in Sha’ia. It is not a matter of a witch having actual power, it is in that professing to be a witch she might cause another Muslim to consider that there might be another God than Allah, therein lies the capital sin that must be punished. how about killing a daughter who wishes to pursue a life which her parents/family disapproves of? Disapproval of is one thing, most children do things that result in parental disapproval from time to time. Going down a path that will lead to apostasy is another thing altogether, acting in a way that might cause another Muslim to acts that are sinful likewise differ from simple disapproval. Must you believe in Djinns and spirits just because they are mentioned in the Koran, could it be allegory? Yes. The things that appear to be the things that Djinns and many other spirits are the allegories of the evil ones. Now how to make the world a better place - some people call for a return to Medieval Islam, others for modernization, some for secularization - how to manage complex, diverse societies - that is the challenge of this age and I see little guidance in the Koran in how to manage internet service providers, or advice on the territorality of satelite communications. Islam can not, need not, and must not change, If there is a departure between the so called modern world and Islam then it is the modern world that must be led back to the truth. As for the modern day technologies, such things are media. What matters is not what things are, it is how they are used. There may be a pure and decent way to structure a society, but nobody knows what it is - you may call it Islam, but you only have your belief that what you follow is the correct path - many people even within your own faith will say you are misguided in your particular interpretation - ask a Shia or a Sufi etc. Now that really shows that you miss a vital point. There are differences in the relationships one with another and in the case of the Shi'ite with the place that Ali had following the taking up to Paradise of The Prophet SAW, but in the interpretation of The Noble Qu’oran there is no interpretation possible or needed and as for those who attribute more to Ali than is right it comes down to which of the Hadith are valid and which are later commentaries that are not. As for the Sufi, they are far removed from Islam though they do try to follow the guidelines. In my eyes the image of your religion is not positive in the slightest, it comes over as dogmatic, rigid, unable to adapt to change. It is used to further violence, oppression of women and those who wish to persue an alternative lifestyle. When ever I read of the Morality Police I think of the verse "there should be no compulsion in religion" - you are unable to accept that and wish to enforce your view of morality on others - don't be surprised when you find people don't accept that. Islam is not a religion in the way that you use the word. Islam is the act of living in submission to the will of Almighty Allah. As for there being no compulsion in religion, that is perfectly true. There is none. People are free to follow whatever path they choose to follow. The result of their choices is another matter entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluemonday Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 The result of their choices is another matter entirely. Hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted February 20, 2008 Author Share Posted February 20, 2008 Wow - we've had some troubling God-botherers on this Forum, but I have to say this is particular one is confirming the worst stereotype of a utopian zealot who will justify violence and coercion against people who have an alternative view point. Genuinely frightening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Here's a little tip to help you: Religion isn't a person... I just thought you'd like to know that. Thanks, it just doesn't seem very Christian to take the piss out of religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.