Should These Cartoons Be Banned?

[Chinahand]

Missed it; care to enlighten us?

[bluemonday]

Some bits about Manx alcohol consumption, racism, smelling like rotten chickens and some personal habits he's observed.

[Chinahand]

A Dutch right-wing politician Geert Wilders has posted a controversial film attacking Koran inspired violence on the internet.

 

Its called "Fitna", a Koranic term sometimes translated as "strife".

 

It shows frankly horrific scences - and islamic imans justifying such violence. It also includes the most controversial cartoon of Mohamed with a bomb in his turban - this time with the fuse burning down.

 

The film has been very controversial - hardly surprising if you view it - not sure what to say. A while back Lonewolf posted a URL of beheadings etc from Iraq. I criticized this and he removed the link. I am not linking to Fitna I am sure it can be found in an instant. It isn't just violence; it is accompanied by a political commentary which is highly negaitive towards violent political Islam. Does that make it better or worse than Lonewolf's link showing cowering people being beheaded?

 

The west kills with fighters, tanks, and missiles - governments pass resolutions and men in suits tell men in uniforms to go to war and as a result 1000s die. I think I agree that in doing that there is a serious attempt to minimize civillian casualties. But the word there is minimize - 1000s still die.

 

There is a difference between that and men in caves sending men without uniforms to go and hide themselves within a civilian population and attempt to commit mass murder of civilians. But if you count the dead I do believe the west's civilian body count is far far higher than the terrorists - that troubles me. And I believe this fact has enflamed and already violent death cult within Islam.

 

The results are horror - which Fitna well documents. How to reduce the influence of violent, death cult Islam? Christopher Hitchens thinks it can't be and the only solution is war. I disagree, but there is something trully evil in its lust for the death of adulterers and idolaters - we must never let peole like this wield political power over large populations.

 

I presume school boys will watch it for salacious titilation - just remember you are watching people dying.

[thesultanofsheight]

My work on your Island is at an end and I return to my temporary home in Holland this week, not to return.

 

Bye eeeee ... don't forget to write. Actually do forget to write, and do forget to come back too.

[Skeddan]

The results are horror - which Fitna well documents. How to reduce the influence of violent, death cult Islam? Christopher Hitchens thinks it can't be and the only solution is war. I disagree, but there is something trully evil in its lust for the death of adulterers and idolaters - we must never let peole like this wield political power over large populations.

Chinahand - while I detest the term 'War on Terror' (which is is not technically a war), there is a 'conflict' and in this the objective is much the same as in war. i.e. to undermine the enemies will or ability to fight. The smartest way to fight a conflict is to undermine the will to fight before a shot has been fired. With extremists, killing lots of people will not undermine will or ability to fight. To reduce the influence requires to show it is morally bankrupt. Unfortunately most of the time the actions of the US and its allies in the 'War on Terror' fall into that category, thus being counter-productive. They are fighting like its a 'bare metal' conflict, not a 'hearts and minds' one.

[Skeddan]

Re Fitna:

Dutch politician Geert Wilders' 15-minute video is taken offline by LiveLeaks after garnering more than 3 million views. The website cites "threats to our staff of a very serious nature."

Source: Wired News 29.03.08

[Chinahand]

It will be interesting to see if they are able to convict the people they've arrested on suspicion of planning to murder one of the cartoonists.

 

I think it will develop along the lines of the Rushdie affair. Every so often some one will die in a horrible way; the cartoonists will get security and support from "liberal" sections of the community, others will blame them for bringing it on themselves and complain about the cost of keeping them safe.

 

For me the idea that publishing a picture, even an offensive one - and in the grand scale of things these pictures are not that offensive - is an excuse for murder says alot about the mindset of the uber-religious. Dogmatic, violent, and insistent on everyone bowing down to their point of view. No way. I support the cartoonists. And it looks like the Danish press isn't going to back down either - the trouble is neither are the nutters. All in all it makes deaths more likely, but sorry the cartoonists aren't responsible for that, its the religious fanatics.

 

Moderate people of all faiths have got to accept that cultural insensitivity doesn't justify murder no matter what it says in some old book.

Well its nearly 2 years later and a religious nutter tried to get a knife into one of the cartoonists. His grand-daughter was also in the house - it does make you wonder what would have happened if the zealot had got his hands on her - thank goodness they both got into a secured "panic room" and the cops were able to arrest the nutter.

 

I despise the religious mindset which wishes to enforce its ideas of the sacred through violence and intimidation.

 

The idea of blasphemy should be anathema in a modern society - and those who desire to drag us back to the dark ages.

[aimeejulia]

sometimes religion drives people mad, they think they are the only ones that matter and anything different should be made to disappear

[Pierrot Lunaire]

Martin Rowson. Very funny.

[Chinahand]

I am genuinely conflicted by Draw a Mohammed day- alot of the drawings are deliberately insulting and crude, and rather than mocking Islam's violent attitude to freedom of expression and conscience use crude racial stereotyping to insult and shock.

 

But at the same time for people to demand that others conform to their beliefs under a threat, and actuality, of violence repulses me.

 

Thunderf00t has got really quite taken up in this -

 

 

I think he does have something important to say, but I worry that this point is at risk of getting lost in a desire to insult.

 

[La_Dolce_Vita]

The only pictures I have seen are those representing Muhammad. Which are all ok in my book, no matter how offensive they appear to Muslims. I did also see some which seem to have images of a pig, which did make me wonder what the basis for that was and whether that was some racist categorisation.

 

I think the message can be lost, however. As many will simply believe it to be a matter of just trying to annoy Muslims and nothing else, rather than an expression of the freedom of speech that took a knocking with the reaction to the Danish cartoons by the media, who were (possibly) understandably scared of the consequences.

[spook]

The root of the matter.

 

The Christian will say “I will die for my beliefs”, the Moslim will say “YOU will die for my beliefs”.

[MilitantDogOwner]

The root of the matter.

 

The Christian will say “I will die for my beliefs”, the Moslim will say “YOU will die for my beliefs”.

 

The normal person says "I ain't dying for either of your beliefs."

[Terse]

The root of the matter.

the Moslim will say “YOU will die for my beliefs”.

Yep... that's exactly what a suicide bomber's going to say, isn't it?

 

The problem with all religions is that they believe their faith is worth dying for.

Someday, perhaps, there'll be one that's actually worth living for.

[wrighty]

The root of the matter.

 

The Christian will say “I will die for my beliefs”, the Moslim will say “YOU will die for my beliefs”.

 

I thought the quote was that one will die for his beliefs, the other will kill for his beliefs. There's a subtle difference. In effect Spook, by believing that atheists like me will 'die' for my non-belief, you agree with your 'Moslim' (never seen that spelling before) that I will die for YOUR beliefs.