Should These Cartoons Be Banned?

[Freggyragh]

We are all free to live according to any word we like, as long as it doesn't impinge on the rights and freedoms of others. I doubt any change to this principle is likely to restrict the freedoms of cartoonists or bakers, as both groups are popular and respected. I find it hard to believe that any Moslem that cherishes the freedom to both follow a medieval semetic religion and to live freely in modern secular/Christain Europe would be for restricting any freedoms - particularly in the current climate. Old Goat - are you really a Moslem, or are you are just posting to make Moslems look extremeley stupid?

[Skeddan]

To doubly insult in this way, by depicting what has been depicted, and worse in the way that it depicts what is depicted is a base and gross insult to Islam and as such it is the duty of every Muslim to respond accordingly especially as the insult is now understood by the insulter.

 

To my mind the uproar over this by some Muslims suggests an idolatory of Muhammed which - as I understand it - is exactly what the prohibition of images of Muhammed was concerned with.

 

It's also worth bearing in mind that there is also a lot of hu-ha by Catholics over anything that might be 'disrespectful' - there was something I remember about South Park, but also in NZ a couple of years back there was a huge fuss over a work by an artist on display in Te Papa (the National Museum) which showed a Madonna figurine inside a condom. (conceptual art - or maybe contra-ceptual art?)

 

It seems to show a bit of lack of confidence and maturity to be so uptight and sensitive to anything like this. Most of the time this sort of thing strikes me as rabble-rousing opportunism by a few which makes the issue into some gargantuan molehill.

 

Personally I'm all for more equal treatment of various religions - for example on eBay I'd like to see not only Muhammed Bears for sale, but also Jesus Bears (maybe with holes in the paws), Shiva Bears (maybe a bit more pricey because of extra arms), and Buddha Bears (with optional Bodhi Tree accessory).

[Albert Tatlock]

Personally I'm all for more equal treatment of various religions - for example on eBay I'd like to see not only Muhammed Bears for sale, but also Jesus Bears (maybe with holes in the paws), Shiva Bears (maybe a bit more pricey because of extra arms), and Buddha Bears (with optional Bodhi Tree accessory).

I'd prefer the Linda Lusardi bear.

[The old goat]

We are all free to live according to any word we like, as long as it doesn't impinge on the rights and freedoms of others. I doubt any change to this principle is likely to restrict the freedoms of cartoonists or bakers, as both groups are popular and respected. I find it hard to believe that any Moslem that cherishes the freedom to both follow a medieval semetic religion and to live freely in modern secular/Christain Europe would be for restricting any freedoms - particularly in the current climate. Old Goat - are you really a Moslem, or are you are just posting to make Moslems look extremeley stupid?

It is not us who are stupid.

 

It is those who fail to realise that by not submitting to the will of Allah they live lives that are poor sorry things, that are unjust, and that they by their failure to heed the word of Allah after it has been made known to them are bound for an eternity in what you call hell.

 

Amongst the things that we ALL are required to do is not to create any of what you call craven image. That means that it is forbidden to create any likeness of any creature into which Allah has breathed life, as to do otherwise is to mock Allah by the very act.

 

To create a supposed likeness of Allah’s Prophet (pbuh) in a way that goes on to insult the greatest of all men, the man that Allah chose to be his final prophet, is indefensible, and having had this made clear to repeat the insult KNOWING that it is so offensive really is beyond all forgiveness.

 

Our way is the best of ways. Our way deals with so much that is afflicting your world today. You call us medieval, you call our way a religion when it is not but rather a perfect way of life, you speak of a “modern secular/Christain Europe”, and yet you fail to understand that we are NOT medieval.

We are absolutely up to date.

 

It is the world in which YOU live that is wrong and it is YOUR world that not only must change but is being changed insh’Allah to return to the pure and right path as disclosed by Allah through his prophet.

 

You call your world secular / Christian yet it is neither. The word that describes YOUR world is Dar ul-Harb. The world of confusion and conflict. YOUR secularism is to deny the Most Merciful. YOURS is the world that is wrong.

 

You write “We are all free to live according to any word we like” and you are wrong. You have been getting away with living your lives in your confusion and denial but now the world is changing. Even this is dealt with in The Noble Qu’oran. Those of you who do claim to be Christian may still practice your beliefs so long as you learn to obey the requirements placed upon you, and thankfully your governments have realised this as they also realise the benefits that Islam brings and how given the dreadful state of your so called civilised societies it is only Islam that can get rid of all that is so wrong with the way that you live. We can solve the drug problems, we can solve the alcohol abuse by your children, we can solve the crime that plagues your towns and cities and we can restore true peace and civilisation to you.

 

As for the pictures of The Prophet and the way that you all failk to see just what a sin it is to produce them and then publish them and then KNOWINGLY and DELIBERATE repeat the insults to Islam, that is a thing that can not, will not, and MUST NOT be allowed to go without response.

 

Reading The Noble Qu’oran as if it were a book such as The Bible? That is simply showing how little anyone knows about The Qu’oran.

 

The Qu’oran is not a book to be read, it is a set of verses to be learned and continually recited at all times in order to obtain the joy of having the living word of Allah a part of any Muslim and also to provide a constant guide to what should be done in all parts of life and what life brings.

 

There is so much that you will gain as Islam increasingly becomes a part of your lives.

[Albert Tatlock]

It is not us who are stupid...

 

...There is so much that you will gain as Islam increasingly becomes a part of your lives.

...and who told you all that? - your mum and dad and/or some mentor no doubt.

 

If you'd have been born in a different country you could have been called Kevin and be a Catholic, Barak and be a Jew, or Mervin and be a protestant - spouting their drivel today instead.

 

You seem to be missing a fundamental point that people are far more educated these days and don't fall for all of this viral rubbish anymore - and can lead just as good a life without it. Real life is the power to think for yourself.

[The old goat]

It is not us who are stupid...

 

...There is so much that you will gain as Islam increasingly becomes a part of your lives.

...and who told you all that? - your mum and dad and/or some mentor no doubt.

 

If you'd have been born in a different country you could have been called Kevin and be a Catholic, Barak and be a Jew, or Mervin and be a protestant - spouting their drivel today instead.

 

You seem to be missing a fundamental point that people are far more educated these days and don't fall for all of this viral rubbish anymore - and can lead just as good a life without it. Real life is the power to think for yourself.

 

Such a good life it is that you lead.

 

Children getting drunk, carrying knives, disobeying their parents, young unmarried girls engaging in sex and giving birth to babies, women dishonoring themselves and their families, women taking a role in the affairs of man for which they are not fitted, killing by thugs, thefts, lies, dishonesty in trade, usury that has led to the economic disaster that is now facing the west, oh yes, what a good life it is that you lead.

[Albert Tatlock]

It is not us who are stupid...

 

...There is so much that you will gain as Islam increasingly becomes a part of your lives.

...and who told you all that? - your mum and dad and/or some mentor no doubt.

 

If you'd have been born in a different country you could have been called Kevin and be a Catholic, Barak and be a Jew, or Mervin and be a protestant - spouting their drivel today instead.

 

You seem to be missing a fundamental point that people are far more educated these days and don't fall for all of this viral rubbish anymore - and can lead just as good a life without it. Real life is the power to think for yourself.

 

Such a good life it is that you lead.

 

Children getting drunk, carrying knives, disobeying their parents, young unmarried girls engaging in sex and giving birth to babies, women dishonoring themselves and their families, women taking a role in the affairs of man for which they are not fitted, killing by thugs, thefts, lies, dishonesty in trade, usury that has led to the economic disaster that is now facing the west, oh yes, what a good life it is that you lead.

I'm sure you are a wind-up merchant.

 

Anyhoo...none of that applies to my family or my children - you can't judge a whole society by the behaviour of a few individuals.

[VikingRaider]

I'm sure you are a wind-up merchant.

 

Not so sure ... more likely a religious nutter from across who's googled the thread.

 

Anyway we now have a new game on Manxforums today ... bait the goat.

[The Voice of Reason]

I'm sure you are a wind-up merchant.

 

Not so sure ... more likely a religious nutter from across who's googled the thread.

 

Anyway we now have a new game on Manxforums today ... bait the goat.

 

Odd choice of user name given that Google searches reveal the Muslim practice of goat sacrifice

[VikingRaider]

Odd choice of user name given that Google searches reveal the Muslim practice of goat sacrifice

 

Good point ... can't be our usual troll though ... some of his posts actually make sense (even though the content is b*llox, obviously).

[bluemonday]

Wonderful, yet another thread about Invisible friends and whose is best.

 

Time religion was confined to the dustbin of history.

 

PS I've read the Quran as well.

[Skeddan]

The old goat.

 

I am interested in your views and think some others here may be as well - if indeed as it seems you are sincere in what you say. As you might understand and may have gathered there is a concern that you may be a 'wind up merchant' - unfortunately that goes on here. I myself originally thought the post was by a regular wanting to provoke a discussion. Having read your latest posts, I do not think you are 'on a wind up', but it would be good to get that assurance. While this would be up to you, it would also help me and others here understand your views better and discuss the topic with you if you would perhaps share something of your background - where you are from (I don't mind if there is no connection with IoM), how you came to be a Muslim, what particular branch of Islam you follow and so forth.

 

I myself believe there is a great deal in the Qu'oran - though I have only read it in translation and not studied it thoroughly. I think there is also a great deal of misunderstanding and bigotry about Islam. However I also think there are concerns and legitimate feelings against some of the more extremist views, especially those that diverge from the teachings of teh Qu'oran and the Prophet Muhammed pbuh. To discuss such differences with you I think would be of value and give insight and understanding at many levels.

 

To all in general, I think we might be very fortunate to have the old goat join the discussion, and there is much that could be gained from this. If he is indeed genuine and sincere, I would like to understand his viewpoint more.

 

I have several questions and would very much like to hear the answers the old goat has to give to these. I'm sure others have questions also. I think it could be a very interesting and productive dialogue.

 

The old goat - the first questions I have on your comments are these -

 

Does Islam teaches that heretics and non-believers should be put to death? If so, then what can be the harm of an insult to Islam by a non-believer? You say following the cartoons, "it is the duty of every Muslim to respond accordingly" - what does this mean? Why do Muslims feel insulted by heretics if there lives are of no worth? What harm can the words of a non-believer do to Allah? or even to a true believer? What is the duty you speak of, where exactly does the authority for this come from, and why is this new or different from the duty to put non-believers to death?

 

Has not Allah guided and brought about these cartoons or at least allowed this to happen - in which case if it is the will of Allah, what place have you or others to say this is a mockery of Allah? Do you claim to be the servant and messenger of Allah? If it was so displeasing to Allah and his purpose why would Allah allow this to happen?

 

I am not a Muslim, but I have no problem in believing there is no God but God, and Muhammed pbuh is his prophet. Am I a non-believer and heretic? What must I do to not be? Is following the teachings of the Qu'oran enough or must I also keep to Arabic tribal customs and additional teachings as well? If I follow the teachings of the Qu'oran, but not according to the interpretation you give them, who is to judge between our beliefs? Is it not Allah?

[VikingRaider]

Wonderful, yet another thread about Invisible friends and whose is best.

 

My Norse Gods would beat the cr*p out of Allah any day of the week.

[The old goat]

The old goat.

 

I am interested in your views and think some others here may be as well - if indeed as it seems you are sincere in what you say. As you might understand and may have gathered there is a concern that you may be a 'wind up merchant' - unfortunately that goes on here. I myself originally thought the post was by a regular wanting to provoke a discussion. Having read your latest posts, I do not think you are 'on a wind up', but it would be good to get that assurance. While this would be up to you, it would also help me and others here understand your views better and discuss the topic with you if you would perhaps share something of your background - where you are from (I don't mind if there is no connection with IoM), how you came to be a Muslim, what particular branch of Islam you follow and so forth.

 

I myself believe there is a great deal in the Qu'oran - though I have only read it in translation and not studied it thoroughly. I think there is also a great deal of misunderstanding and bigotry about Islam. However I also think there are concerns and legitimate feelings against some of the more extremist views, especially those that diverge from the teachings of teh Qu'oran and the Prophet Muhammed pbuh. To discuss such differences with you I think would be of value and give insight and understanding at many levels.

 

It would be of value for you to give specific examples of what you mean by “extremist views, especially those that diverge from the teachings of the Qu'oran and the Prophet Muhammed pbuh”

 

I would add a further point. The Noble Qu’oran does not teach, it discloses.

 

I have several questions and would very much like to hear the answers the old goat has to give to these. I'm sure others have questions also. I think it could be a very interesting and productive dialogue.

 

The old goat - the first questions I have on your comments are these -

 

Does Islam teaches that heretics and non-believers should be put to death? If so, then what can be the harm of an insult to Islam by a non-believer?

 

It is not required that non – believers should be put to death. There are ways in which such people can live in places where Islam has been achieved.

 

You say following the cartoons, "it is the duty of every Muslim to respond accordingly" - what does this mean?

 

A Muslim must do what he believes is the appropriate response to what he perceives has been done. Different people will see different offences having taken place depending on their understanding of Sha’ia and to what extent they believe will best serve the promotion of Islam in parts of the world that have not yet accepting Islam.

 

In my opinion the depiction of The Prophet is offensive not least in that it contradicts the instruction not to make representation of any living thing. On the other hand the damage to the progression of Islam that a strong response in a land that does not fully understand the seriousness of the offence should temper what is said and done. What is the right thing to do in Pakistan may not be the right thing to do at this time in Britain for example.

 

Irrespective of where or when if the representation of Allah’s Prpphet is made in order to mock or to insult Him and His a decision must be made by every Muslim if the insult is to Him and His Memory, or to Islam as a whole.

 

Why do Muslims feel insulted by heretics if there lives are of no worth?

 

I suspect that you use the word heretic when what you really mean is a non-believer. A heretic is something quite precise.

 

The life of every thing that draws breath is of worth. Even an ardent non-believer may have the veil drawn from his eyes and he will make and mean The Proclamation.

 

What harm can the words of a non-believer do to Allah? or even to a true believer?

 

Does there need to be harm done, or the possibility of harm done, for words to be offensive? Are words that are insulting any the less hurtful than words that incite harm?

 

What is the duty you speak of, where exactly does the authority for this come from, and why is this new or different from the duty to put non-believers to death?

 

It is the duty of every Muslim to follow the instruction and demands of Islam according to his understanding of the Law. As for the so called duty to kill unbelievers, that has been covered earlier.

 

Has not Allah guided and brought about these cartoons or at least allowed this to happen - in which case if it is the will of Allah, what place have you or others to say this is a mockery of Allah?

 

These cartoons are not a mockery of Allah, they are an insult to Islam. Also it is said that the sword must be tested in order to determine its worth, it could be that the insult is to determine the worth of Muslims by their response to what is presented.

 

Do you claim to be the servant and messenger of Allah? If it was so displeasing to Allah and his purpose why would Allah allow this to happen?

 

I make no claim to be a messenger of Allah. The Noble Qu’oran tells us that the last messenger of Allah was His Prophet and that there will be no other until the final day.

 

I am not a Muslim, but I have no problem in believing there is no God but God, and Muhammed pbuh is his prophet.

 

If you do believer that Mohammed was The Prophet then I presume that you accept the Qu’oran as the dictated word of Allah. In that case your path is clear, follow Sha’ia, the law.

 

Am I a non-believer and heretic?

 

The word heretic relates to a person who rejects the Roman Catholic church and its teachings. I have no idea if that is a thing that you do. If you do, as you say, accept that there is but one God and that God is Allah then you are one of The Children Of The Book.

 

What must I do to not be?

 

If you want not to be a heretic I suppose you should convert to Roman Catholicism but that is of no interest to me.

 

I suspect that then word that you intended to use was not heretic, and not even infidel as you accept Allah in the form that Christians accept him, but rather Kufr at-tabarri, a person who rejects the Qu’oran and the premiership of Allah’s Prophet or from what you have written dhimmi in my view is probably a closer description.

 

Perhaps the verse 59 from chapter 2 of The Noble Qu’oran may be of help to you in understanding this and other things. Again out of a refusal to blaspheme on my part you must look up your own translation.

 

Otherwise learn The Qu’oran, follow Sha’ia, accept the supremacy of Islam, and pay the poor tax.

 

Is following the teachings of the Qu'oran enough or must I also keep to Arabic tribal customs and additional teachings as well?

 

The Tribal Customs represent how different people in different tribes achieved closeness to The Law taing into account many factors that are involved in their circumstances.

 

Maybe the verse 57:25 from The Noble Qu’oran may provide some enlightenment for you and others. (I may not reproduce that verse in English as I perceive for me to so do would be a blasphemy.)

 

It may be worth identifying the five key aspects of the Sha’ia. These are

 

The preservation of life.

The preservation of religion.

The preservation of reason.

The preservation of lineage.

The preservation of property

 

How these things have been achieved in other places is other appropriate to the circumstances prevailing at those places. Where the same circumstances do not prevail then what may be right in one place may well not be right in the other.

 

If I follow the teachings of the Qu'oran, but not according to the interpretation you give them, who is to judge between our beliefs? Is it not Allah?.

 

There is no interpretation involved. What varies is how life is interpreted relative to the Qu’oran for it is not the Qu’oran that is unclear, it is the mind and will of man.

 

Knowing this Mohammed (saw) often commented on what had been disclosed and demonstrated how complex issues might be clarified by his words and acts in his life. It is his words and deeds that are encapsulated in the Hadith that provide guidance wherever clarification might be of help.

 

But I am not an imam.

 

If you have a sincere wish to learn more about the perfect way of life that Islam presents you should at least examine the many excellent resources on the web and even better make contact with a local imam who will gladly receive you and insh’Allah guide you into the perfect peace and assurance of an eternity in The Garden, quite apart from living life on the earth in the joy that comes from submitting to the will of The Almighty and Most Merciful.

 

A little about me.

 

My chosen name is the English Translation of what my grandson calls me, “Oude geit” (because of my beard) and because he is only three he (still) gets away with it!

 

Most of my family in Europe live in Holland, and my connection with the Isle of Man is one of employment as I am presently based here and will be for the next twelve months or so.

 

I follow the Sunni tradition.

[Freggyragh]

Old Goat -

As I understand it, you must be completely fluent in medieval Arabic in order to read your holy book. Is that correct?